Was this a good/ stupid semi-bluff?

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Rorz1012

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Hi there playing full ring 5/10NL cash game. I bet 4BB preflop with KJclubs from MP+1 and everyone except and MP+2 SB folded. SB is villain with 21VPIP, 11PFR and a medium range.
Flop- 4s Ac 2c
villain bets pot
I raise 60%
MP+2 folds
Turn- 7h
Villain bets 1/3 pot
I shove
villain calls and shows Ah5s
River As.

I read the 1/3 pot bet as weakness and put him on a draw, therefore shoved. Not really too bothered about whether it was a profitable shove EV-wise (I understand that is not smart poker) but was more focused on the read as he had been playing quite nitty all game and I was playing a tag table image.
After calling him and autistic spazz in the chatroom, I bought back in. Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I'm not sure who was the spazz in this scenario.
Thanks :smile:
 
HennieP

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You say the villain has a medium range yet it never occurred to you that he might play an Ax hand on a raise? Why did you not just check fold on the flop? That would have been the sensible thing to do. Even with KK I would have checked and if he checked behind me I get a free turn card. If not I make my decision based on pot odds and nothing else. If I can get to the river cheaply and that second Ace drops I'm definitely out of there. If not I might still call a cheap bet but if I'm not getting the correct odds for a call I'm folding KK here.

So yeah, KJ? Fold that junk.
 
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Rorz1012

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It definitely occurred to me and was pretty obvious, but my range was far stronger than Ax and was repping AK/Q/J due to my bet and raise. So in a nutshell, I'm asking whether you think villain is an idiot for not seeing that, or whether it was me overthinking it. I would definitely not have called a shove on that turn with A5- considering the flush draw and A low kicker- even if I was on a straight draw.
 
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RidersFan

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Your raise looks more like nut clubs. If you had a big A wouldn't you flat and let him continue to spew. You put him on a medium range so that should include Ax, small to mid pairs and suited connectors. Pairs even ones that flopped a set aren't betting pot. You crush suited clubs. He bet pot so if he has Ax he's not folding it. There aren't many draws you could put him on that you don't beat so why would you try pushing him off a draw. Seems like a spew.
 
HennieP

HennieP

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You made a 60% bet on the flop. Now that's a pretty big bet for a draw so I doubt he put you on a flush or straight draw. Even if he did, there was still no flush on the board by the turn. A draw wouldn't normally shove on the turn if he still needs to make his hand unless he's gambling and you say you had a tight table image so from his perspective it must have been rather confusing. Now he has top pair, a gut shot straight draw and an opponent that doesn't make sense with his betting. Is he going to fold? No.
 
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Rorz1012

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Okay, you're 100% right- didn't think about in that way. What do you reckon would have been a better way of bluffing? No bluff?
 
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PKRNRS

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You're raise was called by a weak ace. He leads out with a pot size bet which suggested he paired something but doesn't want a call. You made a good continuation bet. Unfortunately this is not a semi-bluff. You have only a draw to the nuts. You can't win the hand unless he folds. His 1/3 may be an attempt to keep the pot more in check and small because it already seems bloated. You're shove also can be viewed as a weakness, as he correctly identified that you had nada. He did play it badly but that's poker. It is a cash game so you can buy back in when it's not the correct play. Also stack sizes would play a big part into this pot. I would just try to she the rest of the streets as cheaply as I can. Sounds like he had a read on your "TAG".
 
Figaroo2

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It's never a good idea to try and get any player off an ace and with this vpip/pfr gap he is bad and only looking at his top pair and gutshot (minimum top pair, he could easily have 2 pair)
Just be glad he gave you 1/3 pot odds and try and hit your hand. Now you know he's a station you can call 1/3 odds on the turn because you're going to win his stack if you get there. Don't try to bluff stations. Look at their wtsd% before attempting to bluff unknowns
 
Andrew Popov

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Why do you think that the villain did not correctly determine your range?
After all, it turned out to be KJs. In addition, he obviously has a straight draw on the flop, which gave him a good chance.
 
HennieP

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If you were going for a bluff you should have check called the flop, check called the turn and shoved the river IF the board showed a flush and he bet. If he had checked the river a less than 50% pot bet would have been more convincing than a shove. If it was clubs you had the best hand anyway. If it was harts I'd still shove because we're repping a flush draw and harts looks just as scary as clubs. With a paired Ace on the river like it happened here we're just gonna check fold. Get to the river as cheap as possible and then play the board. If at any time he made big bets, just fold.

Have a look at some videos of the pro's like Daniel Negreanu. They almost always bluff when the board looks like it made their hand a lot stronger if they don't have any showdown value.
 
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Runeloko

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I dont really like to bluff that much, unless you got more chips than your opponent & you are able to realize if he gots a good hand or no. then you shouldnt do it.
 
Omahahahaha

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Villain's play is pretty reasonable. He really only loses to ace higher kicker. Well there are only two aces left in the deck, what are the chances one of them ends up in your hand? plus he has probably observed you spew in previous hands
 
BoaSafra

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man, why u raise 4 bbs pre flop if KJ??
2,5x its a good bet, and u see that ace on flop, why u don't fold?
more attention.
 
vitalii029

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It's hard to say I think that everyone is bluffing as he's getting better,every man with his gambit in my head on this bluff as you can and as you like and most importantly, how better
 
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RipItReaper

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You say the villain has a medium range yet it never occurred to you that he might play an Ax hand on a raise? Why did you not just check fold on the flop? That would have been the sensible thing to do. Even with KK I would have checked and if he checked behind me I get a free turn card. If not I make my decision based on pot odds and nothing else. If I can get to the river cheaply and that second Ace drops I'm definitely out of there. If not I might still call a cheap bet but if I'm not getting the correct odds for a call I'm folding KK here.

So yeah, KJ? Fold that junk.

So you think its +EV to fold the flop when the villan donks the flop and we have the nut flush draw? I'm calling at least 1 bet with the nut flush draw in a cash game considering we have no idea what the villans donk betting range is, and if we hit the flush on the turn we get a stack or else we just fold the turn if we brick.
 
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marakhovskii

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There is a category of players who decided to play to the end, regardless of the flop ;(
 
okeedokalee

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You say the villain has a medium range yet it never occurred to you that he might play an Ax hand on a raise? Why did you not just check fold on the flop? That would have been the sensible thing to do. Even with KK I would have checked and if he checked behind me I get a free turn card. If not I make my decision based on pot odds and nothing else. If I can get to the river cheaply and that second Ace drops I'm definitely out of there. If not I might still call a cheap bet but if I'm not getting the correct odds for a call I'm folding KK here.

So yeah, KJ? Fold that junk.

Yep KJu is weak preflop and when an ace flops I'm playing with caution...
 
Dorugremon

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Hi there playing full ring 5/10NL cash game. I bet 4BB preflop with KJclubs from MP+1 and everyone except and MP+2 SB folded.
So far, so good. Unforch, it was all downhill from there.

SB is villain with 21VPIP, 11PFR and a medium range.
Flop- 4s Ac 2c
villain bets pot
I raise 60%
MP+2 folds
Turn- 7h
Villain bets 1/3 pot
I shove
villain calls and shows Ah5s
River As.
Having the NFD is nice, but that's all you have here. You don't have a pair or even an overcard. The next best thing is a backdoor straight draw that's nothing to be excited over. You can read his bet on the flop as a weak ace, but you can't beat any ace. The flop is a fold as you're not getting the odds to call. Overplaying naked draws is a common mistake that costs fish a bundle.

After calling him and autistic spazz in the chatroom, I bought back in. Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I'm not sure who was the spazz in this scenario.
Thanks :smile:
Never criticize fish like that. First of all, it may not be true: he may be a spew monkey, but he could also have had an accurate read on you.

Even if it is true, you want these guys to feel comfortable, you want to encourage them to keep playing badly, not wise them up, and certainly you don't want to chase them away, looking for more congenial company. In cases like this, say "Nice hand" or nothing at all.
 
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