C
chattin35
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I’m writing to present an alternative to the conventional wisdom so widely permeated throughout the internet poker community about limping pre-flop, and attempt to make an argument in its favor. Please tear this post apart if you have a counter-argument. Contrasting perspectives are extremely benficial and productive.
My poker experience is mostly full ring 10nl with occasional ventures up to 50nl online and a couple live tourney‘s and cash games. So, consider the sourse. It may be a micro-stakes specific.
Like so many other poker players, I learned the basics playing tournaments and then migrated to cash games after winning a few freerolls. I am just beginning to open my eyes to just how different cash games really are (took me 60k hands, haha). At it’s most basic a tournament is a battle for the blinds, with survival correlating to (real money) profit rather than chip accumulation. One of the main reasons for raising in tournament poker is to protect a strong hand. By raising, you simultaneously lower the risk of a speculative hand (smaller pocket pairs, suited connectors, Axs, etc) busting you, when they hit a set or draw, by pricing them out while simultaneously getting value in the form of blinds or a few chips on a street or two of betting - thus ensuring your survival.
However, this is not necessarily true in a cash game. In cash poker, you make money by well, winning pots. The bigger the pot the better. You might make the money in a tournament and double up, but you can double up in one hand in a cash game, even triple up! The initial investment of a couple bucks for a small raise or limp is fairly insignificant compared to the potential reward, where in a tournament, you need to conserve your life. This reality changes significantly the value of certain starting hands from cash to tournament poker as well.
The downside to raising pre-flop... so much is talked about the benefits of raising pre-flop and taking the initiative. Here’s a different way to look at it. Raising makes it extremely easy for your opponents to put you on a hand. If a standard 14/10 player opens to 3x bb UTG+1, it’s probably safe to assume he’s got 99+ AQ+ give or take a little based on how tight/loose/positional aware he is. This allows you to play almost perfect poker against him and take virtually ATC and make them profitable. Also, when a standard TAG raises, he’s usually raising with a TPTK hand. I’ve learned the hard way, that you don‘t want to play big pots with these types of hands. Good opponents won’t give your AK on a Kxx board much value unless they’ve got you beat. So, why would you want to clearly define your hand, and start building a big pot pre-flop with a small pot hand? I always found myself raising AK, flopping TPTK and then trying to pot control it to showdown. Why not start the pot small and maybe the guy with K10 will come along cause nobody limps AK? You want to win stacks off the ex-tourney player (me) who falls in love with his AK or AA not be the guy who is suddenly facing a river shove on a suspect board with just TPTK. I argue that you can maximize the value of a hand like AK by limping early position. More to follow on that…
You can take advantage of the fact that limping is considered “whimpy” and stereotypical of weak-tight or calling station type opponents. There are hundreds of players that aggressively iso-raise a limper assuming limp=weakness with a much wider range than they would normally open. This makes them extremely exploitable. Some will raise big in position with ATC when there are several limpers in the pot. When you’re at a table with one of these agro-tards, or especially a short-stack, you can limp behind with a decent hand like AK. Sure enough he sticks in that big 4bb+1 raise from the button and then, if it’s folded back to me, I just move all-in (depending on stack size of course) knowing that he’s likely raising with a wide range, to pick up dead money, and you’re mostly ahead. He’ll be hard pressed to call with anything less than AA or KK, given the standard perception that a limp re-raise is usually AA/KK. He is unlikely to actually have AA//KK himself (based on your read) and two blockers cards. At that point, you just took your TPTK type hand and made a decent little profit from dead money rather than having to play cautiously with a small pot hand OOP against an agressive player post-flop. Another thing you can do is limp with AK and when the lobotomized agro-monkey raises, flat call. He’ll put you on a small pp most likely - hardly ever AK - when the flop comes A-x-x. You can safely check-call three streets of value from his AQ. That same player might fold AJo to an UTG raise from you, but now you’re playing a pot with him in a very profitable dominating situation.
The beauty of this is, after people see you make these plays, it adds an incredible mix of deception to your game while playing OOP. You can effectively take the initiative away from the raiser making him guess - and thereby much more likely to make costly mistakes. A limp-call from you could now mean pocket pair, big ace, suited connector, basically, your entire range. This indecision from villain will slow down his aggression, force him to play more straight-up, which thereby allows you to play more correctly according to ole Sklansy’s fundamental theory of poker.
However, the number-one most valuable reason to limp is… it invites more people into the pot. This is something you want. It creates more chances to play post flop with several people who might decide to come along for the ride with two-pair or a goofy draw when you have the nuts. It gives you better odds, both pot and implied, to play your speculative big pot hands when there are more people in the mix. Monster hands only get paid when there is someone to call you down. Don't scare everyone away with a raise - more people in the flop the better your chances there will be someone around to pay you off when you do hit.
There is also the cost-benefit analysis to limping. If you miss the flop, no pressure to continue as your investment was only 1bb. In theory, you could limp-fold 99 times and if you take a 100bb stack from someone once, it is profitable. Realistically however, you can steal a lot of the limped pots fairly cheaply and bet for thin value, relying on your skills and playing small pot poker with draws and when you semi-hit the flop. The potential for profit is very good from a risk/reward standpoint. Of course, your opponents can pick up monsters as well, so it takes as certain element of caution to step through the “set” mine field you created (har har).
Plus, yeah, the fish like to limp. Might as well put them all in a barrel while you do your thing.
All said, I think limping pre-flop can be a powerful tool to add deception, exploit opponents, and maximize your profits if used correctly.
Anyway, feel free to tear my arguments up. Please do, in fact. I’m still an infant in my knowledge of the game and always trying to learn more.
:beer:
My poker experience is mostly full ring 10nl with occasional ventures up to 50nl online and a couple live tourney‘s and cash games. So, consider the sourse. It may be a micro-stakes specific.
Like so many other poker players, I learned the basics playing tournaments and then migrated to cash games after winning a few freerolls. I am just beginning to open my eyes to just how different cash games really are (took me 60k hands, haha). At it’s most basic a tournament is a battle for the blinds, with survival correlating to (real money) profit rather than chip accumulation. One of the main reasons for raising in tournament poker is to protect a strong hand. By raising, you simultaneously lower the risk of a speculative hand (smaller pocket pairs, suited connectors, Axs, etc) busting you, when they hit a set or draw, by pricing them out while simultaneously getting value in the form of blinds or a few chips on a street or two of betting - thus ensuring your survival.
However, this is not necessarily true in a cash game. In cash poker, you make money by well, winning pots. The bigger the pot the better. You might make the money in a tournament and double up, but you can double up in one hand in a cash game, even triple up! The initial investment of a couple bucks for a small raise or limp is fairly insignificant compared to the potential reward, where in a tournament, you need to conserve your life. This reality changes significantly the value of certain starting hands from cash to tournament poker as well.
The downside to raising pre-flop... so much is talked about the benefits of raising pre-flop and taking the initiative. Here’s a different way to look at it. Raising makes it extremely easy for your opponents to put you on a hand. If a standard 14/10 player opens to 3x bb UTG+1, it’s probably safe to assume he’s got 99+ AQ+ give or take a little based on how tight/loose/positional aware he is. This allows you to play almost perfect poker against him and take virtually ATC and make them profitable. Also, when a standard TAG raises, he’s usually raising with a TPTK hand. I’ve learned the hard way, that you don‘t want to play big pots with these types of hands. Good opponents won’t give your AK on a Kxx board much value unless they’ve got you beat. So, why would you want to clearly define your hand, and start building a big pot pre-flop with a small pot hand? I always found myself raising AK, flopping TPTK and then trying to pot control it to showdown. Why not start the pot small and maybe the guy with K10 will come along cause nobody limps AK? You want to win stacks off the ex-tourney player (me) who falls in love with his AK or AA not be the guy who is suddenly facing a river shove on a suspect board with just TPTK. I argue that you can maximize the value of a hand like AK by limping early position. More to follow on that…
You can take advantage of the fact that limping is considered “whimpy” and stereotypical of weak-tight or calling station type opponents. There are hundreds of players that aggressively iso-raise a limper assuming limp=weakness with a much wider range than they would normally open. This makes them extremely exploitable. Some will raise big in position with ATC when there are several limpers in the pot. When you’re at a table with one of these agro-tards, or especially a short-stack, you can limp behind with a decent hand like AK. Sure enough he sticks in that big 4bb+1 raise from the button and then, if it’s folded back to me, I just move all-in (depending on stack size of course) knowing that he’s likely raising with a wide range, to pick up dead money, and you’re mostly ahead. He’ll be hard pressed to call with anything less than AA or KK, given the standard perception that a limp re-raise is usually AA/KK. He is unlikely to actually have AA//KK himself (based on your read) and two blockers cards. At that point, you just took your TPTK type hand and made a decent little profit from dead money rather than having to play cautiously with a small pot hand OOP against an agressive player post-flop. Another thing you can do is limp with AK and when the lobotomized agro-monkey raises, flat call. He’ll put you on a small pp most likely - hardly ever AK - when the flop comes A-x-x. You can safely check-call three streets of value from his AQ. That same player might fold AJo to an UTG raise from you, but now you’re playing a pot with him in a very profitable dominating situation.
The beauty of this is, after people see you make these plays, it adds an incredible mix of deception to your game while playing OOP. You can effectively take the initiative away from the raiser making him guess - and thereby much more likely to make costly mistakes. A limp-call from you could now mean pocket pair, big ace, suited connector, basically, your entire range. This indecision from villain will slow down his aggression, force him to play more straight-up, which thereby allows you to play more correctly according to ole Sklansy’s fundamental theory of poker.
However, the number-one most valuable reason to limp is… it invites more people into the pot. This is something you want. It creates more chances to play post flop with several people who might decide to come along for the ride with two-pair or a goofy draw when you have the nuts. It gives you better odds, both pot and implied, to play your speculative big pot hands when there are more people in the mix. Monster hands only get paid when there is someone to call you down. Don't scare everyone away with a raise - more people in the flop the better your chances there will be someone around to pay you off when you do hit.
There is also the cost-benefit analysis to limping. If you miss the flop, no pressure to continue as your investment was only 1bb. In theory, you could limp-fold 99 times and if you take a 100bb stack from someone once, it is profitable. Realistically however, you can steal a lot of the limped pots fairly cheaply and bet for thin value, relying on your skills and playing small pot poker with draws and when you semi-hit the flop. The potential for profit is very good from a risk/reward standpoint. Of course, your opponents can pick up monsters as well, so it takes as certain element of caution to step through the “set” mine field you created (har har).
Plus, yeah, the fish like to limp. Might as well put them all in a barrel while you do your thing.
All said, I think limping pre-flop can be a powerful tool to add deception, exploit opponents, and maximize your profits if used correctly.
Anyway, feel free to tear my arguments up. Please do, in fact. I’m still an infant in my knowledge of the game and always trying to learn more.
:beer: