6max opening ranges

Derail from the august cash thread goes here

The why, is mainly just because you came out stating 18/14 was unexploitable stats for 6m, like it was solid well known fact. If you said, oh you can just play 18/14 at 5nl and noone will exploit you enough to stop you winning i'd of been like "yeah, makes sense, aleksei isn't making up new facts here" But just as you stated that unexploitable HU strat had the PFR opening 50% buttons, it was just pulled out of your arse

Click to expand...

I'm not making up shit. To me this is all mathematical logic; so if one of my assumptions is flawed I want it ironed out (rather than just going ZOMG THIS IS WRONG BECAUSE IT'S WRONG BECAUSE IT'S WRONG). So, I will continue to argue the point until someone convinces me it's wrong.

Learn to think for yourself bro. It'll get you places.

acky100 said:

If we wanna be serious though id guess its far from optimal or unexploitable, as it will contribute to more red line losses straight off the bat as opposed to somebody playing 24/20, and overcoming these extra red line losses is likely not possible in any tougher game.

Click to expand...

I kinda doubt it. I mean, 1) you're showing a stronger range off the bat so people have trouble defending wide (allows your steals to work more frequently), 2) you're showing a stronger range off the bat so whatever odd fish floated into your table (from what I've seen of 50NL 6max it's usually like 5 regs or nits sitting in with 1 whale) will be yours because people cannot re-iso light vs your open, and 3) you're showing a stronger range postflop so that you will flop strong more frequently and you can rep strong hands more frequently.

Basically, the logic I'm using here is:

1) If you play tighter than your villain you will flop strong more frequently.
2) If you flop strong more frequently, then you can credibly show aggression more frequently, with or without a hand. Therefore, your pots are more profitable.
3) If you play TOO tight villain can just fold to every action you take, and you lose money because your villain is automatically profiting from stealing your pots.

Ergo, an unexploitable (or difficult-to-exploit as it were -- I don't think there's such a thing as unexploitability proper in poker) range is one that is maximally tight without being so tight villain autoprofits.

Can you show me some evidence of this working? I have a large db and trust me, none of the nits win money at 50NL, quite the opposite in fact. Results oriented? Yep!

Click to expand...

Well like I said twice, my experience is nits are super scared and play horrible postflop so that a skilled player can just take a zillion of their pots. That has nothing to do with their opening range, if someone was opening wide and then playing like a total nit postflop they'd just be EVEN MORE exploitable.

On the other hand someone that shows up with a really strong and really polarized range post, and then actually plays tricky/aggro postflop in all the correct spots, would be massively difficult to defend against. Like for instance, if whenever you bet with top pair in a Broadway-high the other guy folds because he knows your top pair has top kicker and is usually suited, then you just start betting out every Broadway-high flop until they adjust. or if they start cbet bluffing you because "lolz, nit's gonna fold," just peel one with your 2-overs type hands because they have air a lot, or rebluff them or whatever. Regular nits DO NOT DO THAT, which is why they're so exploitable.

For the record: I play something like 33/24/14 and am working on bringing that down because it's too wide for my level. I am NOT a nit, I'm just saying being a nit is not awful if you know how to play right.

I reckon it's just really easy to range you if you're playing that tight. Easy to read; easy to exploit.

Aleksei said:

On the other hand someone that shows up with a really strong and really polarized range post, and then actually plays tricky/aggro postflop in all the correct spots, would be massively difficult to defend against. Like for instance, if whenever you bet with top pair in a Broadway-high the other guy folds because he knows your top pair has top kicker and is usually suited, then you just start betting out every Broadway-high flop until they adjust. or if they start cbet bluffing you because "lolz, nit's gonna fold," just peel one with your 2-overs type hands because they have air a lot, or rebluff them or whatever. Regular nits DO NOT DO THAT, which is why they're so exploitable.

Click to expand...

What kind of polarized range can you come up with for 18/14 that will be hard to deal with? With those stats you will end up with only the top of any range which is easy to read. Or if you polarize it... I guess by taking out a lot of J or T kicker broadways, and adding in more speculative hands.. It's still pretty easy to read just because it's so few possible hands. I'm out of town and don't have all my neat software to play around with, so I can't come up with actual ranges right now, but I don't think 18/14 would ever cause me to make many mistakes. EDIT2:Like I said, I don't have an equity calc, so I'm not sure about this, but I believe 22+, AQ+ will be the entire 14% raising range or close to it, so J and T kickers are already excluded. So what do you do to polarize such a small range? I can understand removing small PP in early position, but replacing them with suited connecters or something like that doesn't seem like it would be any better.

One thing you wrote is that you will get more folds with your TPTK hands, so you can bet any BW flops.. but that also means you are never getting value from your hands. And since you have a stronger range and usually have the best hand... getting more folds IS being exploited.

EDIT: Another thing is that with a range that tight, it won't open up enough on the BTN or in CO, so you will be playing more OOP relative to other players.

DaReKa said:

I reckon it's just really easy to range you if you're playing that tight. Easy to read; easy to exploit.

Click to expand...

Not really. All adding more hands to your range does is make you flop more garbage, because low hands flop top pair almost never and low discoordinated hands flop nothing almost ever. So, if your range is wide all that means is you will flop trash that can't continue more frequently, so you're forced to fold or bluff air on more flops.

Mind: 9-high and down flops top pair <10% of the time.

What kind of polarized range can you come up with for 18/14 that will be hard to deal with?

Click to expand...

UTG: AKo, suited Broadways, suited Aces (sans A2s), T9s, 22+ (12.2%)
HJ: Add suited connectors down to 65s and AQ (14.3%).
CO: Add A2s, suited 1-gappers (over 75), Face-card suited gappers (K9s, Q8s, J8s), any two Broadway, 54s, and offsuited connectors over 98 (26.1%).
BTN: Add A3-A5o, A8o+, any two 9 or higher, offsuited connectors over 65, any two suited 8-high or higher (45.1%). You could also add 72s because 7-high flushes are usually good to play in position, plus winning with 72 is awesome.
SB: 22+, A3+, any two 9 or higher, any two suited 7 or higher (34.5%).

As you can see, that's a pretty narrow rage, yet it hits every board. In fact it actually hits every board more credibly/harder, because fewer hands in it are random offsuited overcards.

With those stats you will end up with only the top of any range which is easy to read.

Click to expand...

Most stuff outside the top of your range is trash, some of it playable if you're skilled enough, (especially in position) some just worthless. Mostly, adding hands beyond like 20%-ish of your range means adding more offsuited hands, since suited hands make up such a comparatively small part of a range. For instance, I open-raise as much as 30% of my range or possibly more, mostly because I have a bad habit of trying to iso-open fish with ragged face cards like K8o from any position.

EDIT2:Like I said, I don't have an equity calc, so I'm not sure about this, but I believe 22+, AQ+ will be the entire 14% raising range or close to it, so J and T kickers are already excluded. So what do you do to polarize such a small range? I can understand removing small PP in early position, but replacing them with suited connecters or something like that doesn't seem like it would be any better.

Click to expand...

Suited hands are actually comparatively pretty rare. Like, even in the HJ range above less than half of hands are suited.

One thing you wrote is that you will get more folds with your TPTK hands, so you can bet any BW flops.. but that also means you are never getting value from your hands. And since you have a stronger range and usually have the best hand... getting more folds IS being exploited.

Click to expand...

Every hand except JJ+, suited Aces and suited Broadways misses the board completely over 60% of the time. Every hand except TT+, AK, AQ and KQ just flops trash over 10% of the time they DO hit. So, when people fold whenever you bet it just means you can bet more often and just pick up the dead money, which combined with the times you hit (which will be frequent), means you're assured to take it down over half the time you see a flop.

EDIT: Another thing is that with a range that tight, it won't open up enough on the BTN or in CO, so you will be playing more OOP relative to other players.

Click to expand...

That's a fair point, but actually you CAN open up from the CO and the BTN by tightening up earlier.

Listen, playing a nit range pre is gonna be fine if you are sitting with people who are unable to play very well. It's also a good starting point if you're new to poker. Apart from that, it's no good if you want to win money against competent opponents.

In summary, all you are really saying is, play tight and aggressive. No one is going to argue too strongly against that, but 18/14 is too tight pre to be any trouble at any competent table. Why can't you accept this? Because you're a genius post flop? If that's the case, it's an argument to play more hands, not fewer.

I read all your post man.
But than again. Depends how high you are aiming. That is the typical range for an ABC poker player. There are no surprizes in your hat. Just the typical white rabbits. Everyone knows the trick and it is boring.
Do not get me wrong. I am not trying to be ironic or sarcastic.
The theory you posted is absolutely correct. By the book. That is why everyone knows it. And that is why the difference at higher lvl is made by skill.
"
In truth, we can order the advantages in terms of value and importance. The least important of all advantages is card advantage. Position comes in 2nd. But, importantly, skill advantage is BY FAR the most important advantage of isolation"

This is a line from Easy Game Vol. 1 from Balugawhale.
So in essence the better player will win taking advantage of situations and proffitable spots.

Cafeman said:

In summary, all you are really saying is, play tight and aggressive. No one is going to argue too strongly against that, but 18/14 is too tight pre to be any trouble at any competent table. Why can't you accept this?

Click to expand...

Because 18/16 isn't too nit and it's barely nittier than the standard. And also because opening and defending nittier makes postflop play easier. The problem is that people who play very tight preflop PLAY TOO TIGHT POSTFLOP too, which makes them exploitable. You can by all means open nitty and play tricky post.

Opening a borderline range like this, therefore, is good if you're good postflop, but you're playing a shit ton of tables. If you're playing just like 3 tables or whatever, by all means play as many hands as you can squeeze EV postflop from. Personally I play too many hands, not too few.

Cafeman said:

In summary, all you are really saying is, play tight and aggressive.

Click to expand...

Is this correct, or am I missing something subtle?

No it's right. I'm just reacting vs the people going apeshit over a couple of guys that wana mass-table 6max and play a range like this; claiming it's exploitable. I REALLY don't think it is, what's exploitable is the stupid scared nits that normally play ranges like this.

Now playing something like 16/13, THAT would be exploitable. But 18/15? That's borderline, but I'm convinced it's fine. Just, you have a strong image postflop. Use it.

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/15967-andrew-brokos-just-a-cooler

This is a great article that you might enjoy discussing why playing nitty ranges can be counterproductive. Playing nitty against a good player allows them to pin your range much easier; in turn, this puts them in situations where the bottom end of their range is much less exploitable than yours (they are going to be getting more value out of the bottom end of their range). Therefore, over a long run, nitty play will tend to get check/raised out of a lot of pots, or coolered (eg running your overpairs into sets) because they are confident the implied odds are there to call preflop

I <3 Andrew Brokos.

Henreiman said:

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/15967-andrew-brokos-just-a-cooler

This is a great article that you might enjoy discussing why playing nitty ranges can be counterproductive. Playing nitty against a good player allows them to pin your range much easier; in turn, this puts them in situations where the bottom end of their range is much less exploitable than yours (they are going to be getting more value out of the bottom end of their range). Therefore, over a long run, nitty play will tend to get check/raised out of a lot of pots, or coolered (eg running your overpairs into sets) because they are confident the implied odds are there to call preflop

Click to expand...

1) it's very easy to include spec hands in a nitty open range.
2) Nitty pre =/= nitty post, as I've reiterated like 5 or 6 times already.

Great article though. :icon_thum

If you are playing 18/14 or something you are playing far too tight. If you have an edge postflop over your opponents an optimal preflop range would probably be 40/30 or higher. Most people competent enough to be reading strat forums should really be playing in the 25+ range.

If you are mass tabling and getting huge rakeback then 18/16 would be fine but if you're able to get decent reads on your opponents and can take time to study the tendencies of regs and the player pool at large, you will be missing far too many opportunities profitable opportunities.

I mean if you think you can only play profitably with TPTK+ then you probably just suck at poker and won't really get any better so playing 18/16 is your ceiling. Otherwise, see some flops and own souls.

yeah I mean I'm thinking about this as a solution for mass-tablers, I just don't think it's immediately exploitable and if you're good already it gives you a ton of leverage postflop. If you're too nitty postflop there's no saving you from being exploited and playing wider just means you become even more exploitable post.

I would never play this tight. But then I also am incapable of multitabling -- I can play like 4 tables max, and can optimally play just two.

aleksei, the situation gets far worse for mass multi tablers who also try to play 18/16, its almost a well known fact that noone is beating nlhe 6m playing 18/16 at any limit above nl50, if this isnt solid proof that your mathematical logic is extremely weak at best, then i dont know what is?!

I could show you plenty of graphs of people playing like 18/16 in todays games, couldn't find you one that beats the game unless its nl25 like we have already discussed.

acky100 said:

aleksei, the situation gets far worse for mass multi tablers who also try to play 18/16, its almost a well known fact that noone is beating nlhe 6m playing 18/16 at any limit above nl50, if this isnt solid proof that your mathematical logic is extremely weak at best, then i dont know what is?!

Click to expand...

Solid proof that imported Mexican lemons cause highway accidents:



Solid proof that pirates prevent global warming:



Shall I go on?

I think it is time I found out what 18/14 means.

I am a live player, and I do not have PT4.

Someone humor me and explain it. That would be swell.

18 is the % of the time you voluntarily put money into the pot.
14 is the % of the time you raise preflop.

Now that's one graph I'd say is probably on point.

Aleksei said:

18 is the % of the time you voluntarily put money into the pot.
14 is the % of the time you raise preflop.

Click to expand...

So that seems like a very tight, passive player? Or the 14% means they raise almost as much as they enter voluntarily?

Wow, wp aleksei, when someone far more qualified than you tries to offer sound logic, you go and be a massive ****. WP

good luck convincing the rest of the world 18/16 can beat 6m lolz

guys, come on now


He independently confirmed this idea by thinking about it, it's math yo.

acky100 said:

Wow, wp aleksei, when someone far more qualified than you tries to offer sound logic, you go and be a massive ****. WP

Click to expand...

The problem is that spurious correlations =/= solid logic. And thinking in terms of results = evidence without considering other variables at play rubs me the wrong way. Sorry if it inconveniences you.

I mean sure, show me evidence of people who play nitty open ranges and DON'T THEN ****ING FOLD >50% OF FLOPS and are still losing, and then we'll talk. Because I feel pretty strongly that the latter is the actual reason they're all losing.

Do you not think regs playing basically the toughest poker games in the world right now (say 1k-5knl on pokerstars) know how to play postflop significantly better than we understand? And why is no-one playing these stats? Game theory is more popular than ever these days, and there are a lot of sharp thinkers out there. My theory as to why no one is doing this is because they must know its a fundamentally flawed strategy to begin with. Or do you think that everyone else is retarded and are missing out on an obviously superior strategy by not playing 18/14? Cmon aleksei, all i tried doing was using real life logic to state why its probably wrong, calm yourself down.

Lol wait for it, waiiiit for ittttt.....