jjbish
Enthusiast
Silver Level
This discussion can/could go many ways.
Some factors involved to get peeps thinking: (No paticular order)
Are you PFR'ing for value or a steal, or to iso a fish?
Are you Ip or OOp?
Are you against a reg or a bad player (or bad reg)?
What's your image? And Table dynamics.
Stack sizes?
Hand strength (obv)
Anyone on tilt?
YOUR 3 betting patterns. (do you 3 bet strictly for value or have a polarized 3 betting range?)
Opponents range/tendendcies for 3 betting (see above)
(each factor can be a huge post in itself, so this lil one part may even jump around.
I'll start w/bad passive players. They are typically not 3 betting lite. The fish will call all the way w/total cheese. But they usally have something when they're showing agression. This doesn't mean they're not 3 betting TT or JJ, but you'll have to rely on their history to determine that. Not to mention they will often just call w/AK, AQ types. So it's usally a value range for them.
Against a reg, especially w/some history, your options increase. Their range is so much wider (typically) that your value range increases. This allows you to 4 bet hands that are an snap fold against a fish and allows you to polarize your 4 betting range.. Tendencies, range, position and history are much bigger factors. OOP (and IP) against a decent reg after you call a 3 bet is just burning money, if you do it regularly I.e. you open 99 and he 3 bets you from the btn, you just call. Flop is AQ2, your hard pressed to continue when he fires, especially a 2nd barrel on a blank turn.
So OOp against a decent reg, it's 4 bet or fold imo. I think so many would benefit from thinking about this. Yes you will get floated and have to give up in some pots, but this will allow you to increase your value range next time. Which is information gained, so you benefit.
I ramble a lil
.
But here's a nugget I found a few years ago from a high stakes player that I've found in valueable many times.
"if his range is wide enough to call, its wide enough to 4-bet. if his range is tight enough to not 4-bet, its tight enough to fold. in general."
Some factors involved to get peeps thinking: (No paticular order)
Are you PFR'ing for value or a steal, or to iso a fish?
Are you Ip or OOp?
Are you against a reg or a bad player (or bad reg)?
What's your image? And Table dynamics.
Stack sizes?
Hand strength (obv)
Anyone on tilt?
YOUR 3 betting patterns. (do you 3 bet strictly for value or have a polarized 3 betting range?)
Opponents range/tendendcies for 3 betting (see above)
(each factor can be a huge post in itself, so this lil one part may even jump around.
I'll start w/bad passive players. They are typically not 3 betting lite. The fish will call all the way w/total cheese. But they usally have something when they're showing agression. This doesn't mean they're not 3 betting TT or JJ, but you'll have to rely on their history to determine that. Not to mention they will often just call w/AK, AQ types. So it's usally a value range for them.
Against a reg, especially w/some history, your options increase. Their range is so much wider (typically) that your value range increases. This allows you to 4 bet hands that are an snap fold against a fish and allows you to polarize your 4 betting range.. Tendencies, range, position and history are much bigger factors. OOP (and IP) against a decent reg after you call a 3 bet is just burning money, if you do it regularly I.e. you open 99 and he 3 bets you from the btn, you just call. Flop is AQ2, your hard pressed to continue when he fires, especially a 2nd barrel on a blank turn.
So OOp against a decent reg, it's 4 bet or fold imo. I think so many would benefit from thinking about this. Yes you will get floated and have to give up in some pots, but this will allow you to increase your value range next time. Which is information gained, so you benefit.
I ramble a lil
.But here's a nugget I found a few years ago from a high stakes player that I've found in valueable many times.
"if his range is wide enough to call, its wide enough to 4-bet. if his range is tight enough to not 4-bet, its tight enough to fold. in general."
N
NewHill
Enthusiast
Silver Level
4 bettin'
I always think the situation dictates the action,but since I'm a low limit grinder I personally think that I'll get just as much info after I see the texture of the flop rather than making a four bet.I anbody thinks this is not a wise play I would love to hear your thoughts on it.
I always think the situation dictates the action,but since I'm a low limit grinder I personally think that I'll get just as much info after I see the texture of the flop rather than making a four bet.I anbody thinks this is not a wise play I would love to hear your thoughts on it.
B
baudib1
Legend
Silver Level
IMO we should be flatting more top-end hands OOP vs. "good" players. If we never have QQ+/AK when we flat a 3-bet OOP our range is extremely constricted and easy to play against.
jjbish
Enthusiast
Silver Level
rssurfer54
Visionary
Silver Level
i think his post accounts for this. ie we could just never flat oop and always 4bet, which is what that pro was talking about i believe.
K
kmind
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Hey baudib - I was 4bet bluffing a ton at 25NL 6max which caused a lot of variance. I was beating the game fairly well and then started getting 5bet shoved a lot (almost always with the nuts though) and lost 15 buyins.
I then got coaching by the all-time biggest winner at that stake and he heavily suggests to rarely 4bet as a bluff. I know it's read dependent and a lot of it is just math but at these stakes you really have to find a very aggro. 3bettor to start playing back at. And that takes a lot of hands. You can't just assume someone is bluffing a lot if it's early on.
About the OOP stuff. I know 100bb deep a lot of high stake regs. used to never call. But tbh, I'd flat with some of my nut hands to trap certain players.
Anyways, not sure where this is going. I just thought I'd share some personal experience and advice given by various players. I might try to run some math today or tomorrow if I don't forget.
Edit: Just want to add that I didn't really want to name names which is why I just gave descriptions of them. Sorry if it sounds conceited.
I then got coaching by the all-time biggest winner at that stake and he heavily suggests to rarely 4bet as a bluff. I know it's read dependent and a lot of it is just math but at these stakes you really have to find a very aggro. 3bettor to start playing back at. And that takes a lot of hands. You can't just assume someone is bluffing a lot if it's early on.
About the OOP stuff. I know 100bb deep a lot of high stake regs. used to never call. But tbh, I'd flat with some of my nut hands to trap certain players.
Anyways, not sure where this is going. I just thought I'd share some personal experience and advice given by various players. I might try to run some math today or tomorrow if I don't forget.
Edit: Just want to add that I didn't really want to name names which is why I just gave descriptions of them. Sorry if it sounds conceited.
