5NL - first impressions, correct or not?

OK so I started playing 5NL yesterday since my early tries showed that the players are not much better than 2NL.

I am getting destroyed due to some massive and fairly consistent suckouts, where I feel forced to fish tag these players but of course maybe I am wrong and calling pot bets with gutshots and calling preflop raises with ATCs is the way to go in 5NL.

So, there are my first impressions:
- Everybody limps and calls a raise with Axs, any 2 SC, and in many cases ATCs.
- People massively call cbets with any piece of the board, sometimes including total air.
- MORE calling stations than in 2NL (?!). People just don't fold one pair to multiple barrels, ever.
- Level of aggression is somewhat higher post flop but I didn't see that much bluffing (there was no need since these guys hit gutshots 80% of the time), only thing that stands out is that people bet nut FDs.

Does this strike you as correct or am I off the mark?

Sounds about right. 5NL isn't easier than 2NL though. I mean they're both full of piss poor play but I think your limited experience is skewed (and by "I think" I mean it's pretty obv if gutters are binking 80% of the time). If you're sufficiently rolled to handle days that go more or less as you describe here, you're do fine at 5NL imo.

These players who flat out refuse to fold you're noticing are a great reason to go big when you're betting for value. ½ pot in a lot of cases is leaving tons of $$ on the table.

If you end up sticking at 5NL you'll be able to play rush now too, and you may bump into me from time to time. Veyron was running last night for one of the very few times since the relaunch and the players in it didn't seem very comfortable with 3 or 4 handed play... heh. If it ends up being more active in the future I'm definitely going to play a lot more rush.

I don't like rush and don't think I ever will.

As for the suckouts, I just lost with set vs smaller set on the turn (he hit his 1-outer on the river). 97.7% equity is not enough to win, what can I say? I guess the question is only how long this shit can last.

Edit: Down 2.5 BI in 663 hands for -37bb/100 loss rate, lovely. I think that is enough for today.

Highlights:
1. Runner runner straight flush
2. Rivered by a 1-outer

LD1977 said:

I don't like rush and don't think I ever will.

As for the suckouts, I just lost with set vs smaller set on the turn (he hit his 1-outer on the river). 97.7% equity is not enough to win, what can I say? I guess the question is only how long this shit can last.

Edit: Down 2.5 BI in 663 hands for -37bb/100 loss rate, lovely. I think that is enough for today.

Highlights:
1. Runner runner straight flush
2. Rivered by a 1-outer

Click to expand...

Just variance (pretty disgusting I must admit).

$5 NL is full of fish. You will do fine once you get the run-bad out of your system. Don't worry at all.

These "genuises" will later call full pot bets with bottom pair (hoping to spike 2 pair or trips), gutterballs, OESDs, and of course 5 high FDs.

$5 NL is high in variance (obviously), but also soooooo easy to get paid huge when you have the goods.

My tips (don't know if you need them):

• Rarely or never bluff
• Raise 4x + 1BB for every limper pre
• Bet as much as you think they will call, the sky is the limit (shoving $5 into a $1 pot often gets a call when you have top set)
• ABC poker, tight is right.

Edit: I forgot to wish you good luck! May the flop be with you......

Thanks, I need all the help I can get.

I have been winning 7.5 bb/100 in 2NL (EV adjusted) over last 32k hands so I figured I might give 5NL a shot. Can't be THAT much harder right?

I want to be careful and not attribute losing just to bad luck (it seems too self-delusional) but it is kind of hard not to

Anyway, HEM shows a loss of -12,5$ with EV adjustment of 7.2$ but it seems pretty small since some of the stuff doesn't show via EV adjustment. I would guess with average luck I should be close to break even at least, but to be semi-certain about that I will have to wait a while longer.

I just hope I don't get bankrupted since I started with only 60 BI, with this loss rate I am gonna burn through that very quickly indeed.

LD1977 said:

Thanks, I need all the help I can get.

I have been winning 7.5 bb/100 in 2NL (EV adjusted) over last 32k hands so I figured I might give 5NL a shot. Can't be THAT much harder right?

I want to be careful and not attribute losing just to bad luck (it seems too self-delusional) but it is kind of hard not to

Anyway, HEM shows a loss of -12,5$ with EV adjustment of 7.2$ but it seems pretty small since some of the stuff doesn't show via EV adjustment. I would guess with average luck I should be close to break even at least, but to be semi-certain about that I will have to wait a while longer.

I just hope I don't get bankrupted since I started with only 60 BI, with this loss rate I am gonna burn through that very quickly indeed.

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You are going to be fine man.

You really did have some run-bad. Don't sweat it. It's too early to predict future profits/losses.

Just play your A game, and everything will be fine. Think positive, keep your mood in good spirits.

Thx, will try to always be focused and keep learning.

Here is a fun fact:
When I started with some strategy adjustments in 2NL (beginning of those 32k hands) in the first 3 days I run 6.5 BI under EV but by the end (19 days total) I ended up 9 BI over EV.

Talk about crazy variance!

I suppose now I am "paying" for that good luck (that I kind of didn't really need) on a higher limit :eek2:

BTW I checked my All In stats in those 32k hands of 2NL:
1) Equity >60% = 57%
2) Equity between 40 and 60% = 13%
3) Equity <40% = 29%

Dunno how good is that but 2:1 ratio between 1) and 3) should be decent, no?

Edit: 1% is divided between 3 options, so the sum seems to be 99%.

This is interesting: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=25847540&postcount=62

"I barreled a fair bit on NL2 but people seemed a bit more stationish at NL5 and NL10" - Counter-intuitive a bit but that is my impression too.

I am down 10 Buy ins over 10nl in past 2 weeks, I should be up alot more though, around 20 buy ins... just getting unlucky and gotta play through the bull shit.

CO: $5.00
BTN: $6.09
SB: $2.57
BB: $0.67
UTG: $2.64
Hero (UTG+1): $7.26
MP1: $5.43
MP2: $2.50

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is UTG+1 with 4 :diamond: 4 :heart:
1 fold, Hero calls $0.05, 2 folds, CO raises to $0.20, 2 folds, BB calls $0.15, Hero calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.62) 5 :spade: 3 :spade: 7 :diamond: (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets $0.50, BB calls $0.47 all in, Hero folds

Turn: ($1.56) 4 :spade: (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($1.56) 4 :club: (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $1.56
CO shows A :club: A :diamond: (two pair, Aces and Fours)
BB shows A :spade: 9 :spade: (a flush, Ace high)
BB wins $1.49
(Rake: $0.07)

This is just unfair I need to learn to chase gutshots, obviously it wins every time.

For what it's worth on stars 5nl 6max at least....they LOVE to call flop cbets more than 2nl pers believe it or not. Maybe it's my 20k sample size but seems to me they actually respect cbets a good bit less and float a LOT more. My cbet success hanging at 43 percent or so, and I don't even dick around with half pot bets unless it's a bone dry board. Usually 70 pct pot or more.

Adjusted by cbet ting barely above 50% and I'm still getting called down the same amount of time, but with more value hands past the flop and I'm owning 5nl thus far, touchwood.

I think they key here is that 5nl still has lots of fish and the regs here are In over their heads with their postflop skill, thinking they can float and shit willy hilly without even adjusting that you have just tightened up flop betting or whatever.
Also, they suck at 3 and 4bet pots. Calling and hoping to flop and shit.

Yeah I am also thinking of reducing cbetting for the same reason (I had insanely high cbet % in 2NL and it worked great since people actually fold to cbets there), it is just that these muppets are just calling with more-less nothing and at any sign of weakness will steal the pot or if I persist I mostly get coolered by random garbage.

That will be great once I start actually hitting flops since if OOP I think the idea is to just cbet once/twice and chkraise turn/river but for now all I am doing is inflating pots with preflop raising and then getting owned in various unpleasant ways by people who don't fold, ever. Especially wide CO/BTN raising that worked great at 2NL is getting me in deep trouble if I miss the flop.

Worst thing is that I am observing the tables and writing notes whenever I see a showdown and it seems to me these people are horrifyingly bad and yet I am getting absolutely destroyed by them. So if this continues I am seriously going to reconsider my opinion on myself and my play.

I don't want to go back to nitting, it is boring

Had a good win playing rush, sucked out with a crazy flush chase.

Often after the flop is bet we tend to find ourselves pot committed and chase.

Next night had the same thing happen to me, hit trips on the river called an all in only to find my villain had rivered a flush from a 5-7 of hearts pocket chased all the way with 7s.

Swings and roundabouts guys, you suckout then are sucked out on.

Difference being we remember the bad beats and overlook the ones we put on others.

I played 95K hands at NL2 with a winrate of 12bb/100, then moved up to NL5 and played 25K hands and my winrate at this level is 7bb/100. I play FR at normal tables as i don't like zoom.

In my experince the only difference between NL2 and NL5 is there are more nits and less fish at NL5. It was easy to find 12 fishy tables at NL2 so i played 10+ tables there but i only play 7-8 tables at NL5 because i can't find that many good tables at this level.

I play the same 14/10, AF: 3, 3bet:3 type of weak tight nitty game at both levels. I also get runner runners and 2 outers but i rarely get tilted and when i do get tilted i immediately stop playing. I think that's my strongest point. Other than that i'm a very mediocre player so if i can beat these levels anyone else can too.

LD1977 said:

Down 2.5 BI in 663 hands for -37bb/100 loss rate, lovely. I think that is enough for today.

Highlights:
1. Runner runner straight flush
2. Rivered by a 1-outer

Click to expand...

My exact results today @ 4NL on Carbon. F@*k poker :-}

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/poker-goals-challenges-wins-46/just-venting-222685/

AugustWest said:

My exact results today @ 4NL on Carbon. F@*k poker :-}

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LOL. You two need to get together and write a strongly worded letter to the management.

Play strong hands more aggressive and see more cheap flops

Beanfacekilla said:

LOL. You two need to get together and write a strongly worded letter to the management.

Click to expand...

ergingo said:

I played 95K hands at NL2 with a winrate of 12bb/100, then moved up to NL5 and played 25K hands and my winrate at this level is 7bb/100. I play FR at normal tables as i don't like zoom.
...
I play the same 14/10, AF: 3, 3bet:3 type of weak tight nitty game at both levels. ... i'm a very mediocre player so if i can beat these levels anyone else can too.

Click to expand...

Yup, similar stats but different results.

If you are mediocre then obviously I suck ass, since I couldn't win more than 7.5 bb/100 at 2NL, playing 4-6 tables

UTG+1: $5.00
MP1: $2.46
MP2: $2.88
Hero (CO): $5.65
BTN: $3.45
SB: $5.38
BB: $3.93
UTG: $4.74

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is CO with 2 :spade: A :spade:
4 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, 1 fold, SB calls $0.13, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.35) 8 :club: A :club: 2 :diamond: (2 players)
SB bets $0.20, Hero raises to $0.60, SB raises to $1.80, Hero raises to $5.50 all in, SB calls $3.43 all in

Turn: ($10.81) 7 :heart: (2 players - 2 are all in)

River: ($10.81) Q :heart: (2 players - 2 are all in)

Final Pot: $10.81
Hero shows 2 :spade: A :spade: (two pair, Aces and Twos)
SB shows 8 :spade: 8 :diamond: (three of a kind, Eights)
SB wins $10.27
(Rake: $0.54)

Rungood continues. It is becoming certain there is no way I can beat this limit with this shit happening nonstop with only very brief pauses in between.

SB is nitty but not many hands and no reads.

Yes I knew a set is possible but:
1. Almost nobody actually donks a set, I put him on AK/AKs like 90% of the time (nit)
2. I have 2 pairs

RIP ticket (at least I didn't lose $$$ this time).

P.S. Running 1.8 buyins under EV in 3k hands but this kind of stuff doesn't even show up on that. Total loss is 5 buyins, I am too disgusted to go and see how much I lost to this sort of stuff but my guess is around 7 buyins.

LD1977 said:

UTG+1: $5.00
MP1: $2.46
MP2: $2.88
Hero (CO): $5.65
BTN: $3.45
SB: $5.38
BB: $3.93
UTG: $4.74

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is CO with 2 ♠ A ♠
4 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, 1 fold, SB calls $0.13, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.35) 8 ♣ A ♣ 2 ♦ (2 players)
SB bets $0.20, Hero raises to $0.60, SB raises to $1.80, Hero raises to $5.50 all in, SB calls $3.43 all in

Turn: ($10.81) 7 ♥ (2 players - 2 are all in)

River: ($10.81) Q ♥ (2 players - 2 are all in)

Final Pot: $10.81
Hero shows 2 ♠ A ♠ (two pair, Aces and Twos)
SB shows 8 ♠ 8 ♦ (three of a kind, Eights)
SB wins $10.27
(Rake: $0.54)

Rungood continues. It is becoming certain there is no way I can beat this limit with this shit happening nonstop with only very brief pauses in between.

SB is nitty but not many hands and no reads.

Yes I knew a set is possible but:
1. Almost nobody actually donks a set, I put him on AK/AKs like 90% of the time (nit)
2. I have 2 pairs

RIP ticket (at least I didn't lose $$$ this time).

P.S. Running 1.8 buyins under EV in 3k hands but this kind of stuff doesn't even show up on that.

Click to expand...

Disagree that no one donks a set. Why not donk a set on an A high board?

Looks fine to me unless hes a nit tbh.

Running 1.8 BI under ever is seriously nothing LD. Last month I was 18BIs below EV in like 45k hands.

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas...ad-bro-grinding-25nl-221824/post-2069240.html

Keep up the hard work it will pay off!

roflmao you sound exactly like my dad. he has said everything you just said word for word. He does not play online often but when he does it ends up the same way almost every time with the laptop slamming shut while he groans under his breathe frigging gutshot fish. but your observations are sadly quite accurate and the only way i have found to avoid it is to steal from the tighter players and try to control the pot size with smaller bets against the sukfish unless you got a five card nut hand.

Yes I know it is nothing but I am continuously running into very top of everyone's range (even the fish). Seriously, I am getting paranoid.

Not to mention that every ****ing gutshot comes in for some truly ridiculous hands that somehow called a raise and a cbet.

It is either impossible to win with such luck or I am truly a complete retard who is deluding himself.

-16 bb/100 over 3k hands is horrifying.

smidjet - I am 35 old geezer heh

pocketehs - I am not qualified to judge your 10NL results. Thing is I don't think I am spewing unless this is a spew but seriously, 2 pairs FFS. If I start folding that then **** it, I am going to start learning shortstacking.

LD1977 said:

Yes I know it is nothing but I am continuously running into very top of everyone's range (even the fish). Seriously, I am getting paranoid.

Not to mention that every ****ing gutshot comes in for some truly ridiculous hands that somehow called a raise and a cbet.

It is either impossible to win with such luck or I am truly a complete retard who is deluding himself.

-16 bb/100 over 3k hands is horrifying.

smidjet - I am 35 old geezer heh

pocketehs - I am not qualified to judge your 10NL results. Thing is I don't think I am spewing unless this is a spew but seriously, 2 pairs FFS.

Click to expand...

Im not saying look at the results. Ive made a lot of changes stat-wise to my game b/c i was spewing a lot. However Im just saying if you want to see variance that graph will show you it lol

I just dont think its realistic to think you can play without variance including running 2pair into a set let alone set v set, you know? I never ran into a hard downswing until about 10NL and it crushed me because I was expecting I could win at 10bb/100 all the time. Just saying that downswing are inevitable dude - just learn to not be bothered by it as best as possible so that you dont worsen it.

Sure, I know, but still I played 110k hands in 2NL and didn't run into such consistently crappy luck. I had big downswings but that was a combo of variance and bad play (even worse than now if that is believable ).

I plan to watch some videos this week and see if I can improve my post flop game, pre flop looks pretty good when I look at the stats.

I do have the whole 3betting/4betting/blind defense thing on the "to do" list but I don't think it is such a big issue at 5NL and certainly I am not getting owned pre flop.