5nl - AA deep stacked facing a large river bet

K

Kidsoldja

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Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($35.50)
UTG ($16.56)
MP ($3.78)
CO ($5.06)
Button ($5.41)
Hero (SB) ($14.09)

Preflop: Hero is SB with
ah.gif
,
ac.gif

UTG bets $0.17, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.50, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.33

Flop: ($1.05)
4s.gif
,
5d.gif
,
9d.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.70, UTG calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.45)
2d.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $1.80, UTG calls $1.80

River: ($6.05)
ks.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $3.70, Hero folds

Total pot: $6.05 | Rake: $0.40

I don't know how to play this hand any better. The only things I can put the villain on are like AK or AQ of diamonds for a flush or 99 for a flopped set or KK for the rivered set. It really seems like I'm beat here, especially against another deep stack who presumably plays decently, since we have no reads.

Or am I giving the villain too much credit? Maybe he was just calling down with AK, hit the K on the river, and thought I had like JJ or QQ and thought he had me beat.

Now that I think about it, I think the best move is just betting the river. What do you guys think?
 
Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

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Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($35.50)
UTG ($16.56)
MP ($3.78)
CO ($5.06)
Button ($5.41)
Hero (SB) ($14.09)

Preflop: Hero is SB with
ah.gif
,
ac.gif

UTG bets $0.17, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.50, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.33

Flop: ($1.05)
4s.gif
,
5d.gif
,
9d.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.70, UTG calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.45)
2d.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $1.80, UTG calls $1.80

River: ($6.05)
ks.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $3.70, Hero folds

Total pot: $6.05 | Rake: $0.40

I don't know how to play this hand any better. The only things I can put the villain on are like AK or AQ of diamonds for a flush or 99 for a flopped set or KK for the rivered set. It really seems like I'm beat here, especially against another deep stack who presumably plays decently, since we have no reads.

Or am I giving the villain too much credit? Maybe he was just calling down with AK, hit the K on the river, and thought I had like JJ or QQ and thought he had me beat.

Now that I think about it, I think the best move is just betting the river. What do you guys think?

why?
 
thepokerkid123

thepokerkid123

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He's playing 5nl so I immediately assume he's a fish, that he has 700bb implies that he has either been playing very aggressively or has been on a huge heater. So my assumption is agro-fish.

As played I think he's calling pre-flop, flop and turn with at least AK and AQ, with any diamond, I'm making the river call.
I would however 3bet bigger pre-flop and value bet the river.
 
Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

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Do you think the villain is more likely to call or bet if checked to with a missed draw or mid PP.

If you think he calls with AQo here then bet bet bet but if yoiu think he looks at the board sees a FD could have got there and a King on the river and thinks "maybe my AQo isnt the best hand" then betting is wrong.
 
Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

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I villian is loose then I snap call.

If villian is tight I check/fold or throw out a block bet and fold if he raises

The thinking is that if he is loose then when he calls preflop we can take out QQ+ and AK from his range. Leaving all PP and Big aces.

On the flop we can reduce the likelyhood of sets because villian would normally raise with the FD on board.

On the turn when the Flush hits and we bet he must have something. Sets are possible, but its more likley to be a big ace with a FD or a made pair such as JJ

On the river the BD FD bricks but there is a scare card. Its a suicide spot to value bet a king (unless its AK) or a PP so when he bets its either a value bet or a bluff. The king is a prefect card to bluff on so I would snap call, but if the card were a T then its a different scenario.

If however he is tight, we can put him preflop on a range of 66-JJ (mid PP) big aces (mainly suited) and KQs

A tight player is less likely to peel with AX on a board with a FD unless he holds the BD FD he will peel one street with a PP.

On the turn when he calls we can take MOST PP out of his range, leaving AX type hands (the majority of which will be AXs, with a few AXo i.e. he would show up with AJs and fold if they were with the wrong suit but might continue with AKo if the A is the Flush ace but you will never see hands like AJo or ATo)

So a tight player will only ever call the turn bet with a hand that beats you or the nut flush draw. Therefore its better to check the turn than to bet it.

When the river bricks the tight player will never bluff at the king, but may see your turn check as a sign that you were on the FD and missed, making his AK good. He may also put you on hands like 88-QQ and therefore decide to value bet the king but only after the turn check.

Basically betting the turn and getting called means that if you bet the river you only ever ghet called by better (maybe a hero call from Ak) but you are also up against a player type that will rarely bluff.

Checking through the turn opens up the villians value betting range

So against a loose player I would bet the turn and check the river with the intention of snap calling any obvious scare card.

However against a tight player I would check through the turn with the intention of folding unless the river brings an obvious lesser value bet.
 
Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

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Actually you have about 10% more equity on the turn than I thought.

So you can actually bet the turn for value in both cases.

Against the loose player you could even CR the turn.

I'm still not keen on betting the river though
 
W

WillySmackYoAss

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You should bet the river. I don't see why you check. Even if you throw a bet out of around $2, he's not raising you without a flush. So you're bet costs you less than you think you would have to call if you checked and he bet.
 
Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

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You should bet the river. I don't see why you check. Even if you throw a bet out of around $2, he's not raising you without a flush. So you're bet costs you less than you think you would have to call if you checked and he bet.

but he is also not bluffing / calling with his missed draws
 
W

WillySmackYoAss

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I see no reason to fold the hand. You bet $2 - $3 on the river, if you get raised, fold. If you get called, there's a good chance that if you checked he was betting and it would probably be more than the $2 - $3 you bet, so you save money. I think it's an auto call on the river. $3.70 is just too weird of a bet and small enough to call.

If I played the hands, flop and turn would've been pot bets
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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If you're checking the river here it should be because you think he'll bet/bluff with worse but fold if you bet yourself, but my god man call that river bet. If you're folding here you're just letting yourself get pushed around way too much.
 
NineLions

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Kidsoldja, pay attention to what Stu has said about playing different types of opponents. You gave no information about your opponent, maybe because you didn't have any, but it makes a big difference in terms of what the better play might be and what range of hands he might hold here.

But generally I'm with WV; I would often check the river here, but with the plan to call any reasonable bet, though more so against an aggressive postflop player. With the flush on the turn and now you check the King it's a good spot for someone to take the pot away from someone that can be pushed around.
 
forsakenone

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wait so on the river HERO checks and folds? why check? anyway cmon dude this is 5nl and you have to call like 3$ to win 9$, there is nothing to talk about, snap call with pocket AA, he can have anything from a K to a draw, and ofc he can have a flush or set but you have to call.
 
moemtg

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I couldn't agree more with the this deep explanation...

I villian is loose then I snap call.

If villian is tight I check/fold or throw out a block bet and fold if he raises

The thinking is that if he is loose then when he calls preflop we can take out QQ+ and AK from his range. Leaving all PP and Big aces.

On the flop we can reduce the likelyhood of sets because villian would normally raise with the FD on board.

On the turn when the Flush hits and we bet he must have something. Sets are possible, but its more likley to be a big ace with a FD or a made pair such as JJ

On the river the BD FD bricks but there is a scare card. Its a suicide spot to value bet a king (unless its AK) or a PP so when he bets its either a value bet or a bluff. The king is a prefect card to bluff on so I would snap call, but if the card were a T then its a different scenario.

If however he is tight, we can put him preflop on a range of 66-JJ (mid PP) big aces (mainly suited) and KQs

A tight player is less likely to peel with AX on a board with a FD unless he holds the BD FD he will peel one street with a PP.

On the turn when he calls we can take MOST PP out of his range, leaving AX type hands (the majority of which will be AXs, with a few AXo i.e. he would show up with AJs and fold if they were with the wrong suit but might continue with AKo if the A is the Flush ace but you will never see hands like AJo or ATo)

So a tight player will only ever call the turn bet with a hand that beats you or the nut flush draw. Therefore its better to check the turn than to bet it.

When the river bricks the tight player will never bluff at the king, but may see your turn check as a sign that you were on the FD and missed, making his AK good. He may also put you on hands like 88-QQ and therefore decide to value bet the king but only after the turn check.

Basically betting the turn and getting called means that if you bet the river you only ever ghet called by better (maybe a hero call from Ak) but you are also up against a player type that will rarely bluff.

Checking through the turn opens up the villians value betting range

So against a loose player I would bet the turn and check the river with the intention of snap calling any obvious scare card.

However against a tight player I would check through the turn with the intention of folding unless the river brings an obvious lesser value bet.

I agree in full...:itsme:
 
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