Is 5BB/100 really considered a good WR and "crushing it"?

akaRobbo

akaRobbo

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Total posts
656
Chips
0
Its 1BI every 2k hands...

I guess its because im playing micros and still looking at $ instead of BB. I just started playing 25NL and played 2k hands, looked at the cashier and ive won just around $25. My immediate reaction was that I wasn't satisfied and thought id made little progress. But, I was at 4.8BB/100, which is supposedly good... I know this is no sample, thats not the point im making. The point is my first reaction is to look at $ won, and it seems very little, but actually when looking in poker terms and stats... it IS good.

Is 5BB/100 something to aim for at the micros, or should it be more here?
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
Makes me curious too, where these standards set back in the day when 24 tabling micros was the standard and that is the "robotic" crushing winrate. I like to think so and I also like to think 10+bb/100 is achievable while multi tabling only 2-4 tables.(for an average micro player) I am pretty inexperienced though so IDK! :D
 
LD1977

LD1977

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Total posts
3,091
Chips
0
5bb/100 is decent for random tables, but if you hunt whales and sit to their left it can be higher.

I achieved 3.2 EVbb/100 over 104k hands in 25NL Zoom this month (and am not happy), normal tables should be easier so 5-6 bb/100 has to be doable.

Last month I played regular 25NL tables, win rate 2.1 EVbb/100 over 11k hands which is pretty meh.
But vs total unknowns it is not so bad maybe, I have identified quite a few whales but really can't be bothered to constantly monitor tables (which are breaking nonstop) etc. instead of putting in the volume.

With good hand sample you should have a nice stable of whales to farm.
 
Last edited:
Logan2

Logan2

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Total posts
4,054
Chips
0
More than WR to aim you should aim for volume, some people tell me before than i´m obsesed with volume but the thing is that to get any $ you need to load a ton of volume
and that´s what most people don´t understand.

Sure, maybe could get a higher WR and reach 10bb if play 2-4 tables and focus on every action, but how much hands you going to load at the end of the month?, nothing that matters.

So your goal should be to make the most volume while still can keep any decent WR.

In your example of 25nl
I will prefeer to load 100k hands in 1 month at 3bb = 30bi´s x $25 = $750
than win at 10bb but load only 10-20k hands = 10-20 bi´s x $25 = $250-$500

Also with volume you get little more extra on reward incentives like more vpps = more Stellars more fpps = more cash rewards etc. Which is almost non existent with low volume.


So, answering your question, could you get a higher WR than 5bb?, maybe yes, but like you mention it does not look like much so you got 2 options, try to load more volume or try to move up in stakes where money start to mean something even with low volume.

The thing is that every higher stake going to be harder, so in theory is easy to just load more volume.
 
Last edited:
LD1977

LD1977

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Total posts
3,091
Chips
0
Yeah I forgot to say I achieved Platinum level, which is nice and should help in later months ;) so volume has its own quality beyond only the win rate.
 
Logan2

Logan2

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Total posts
4,054
Chips
0
Yeah I forgot to say I achieved Platinum level, which is nice and should help in later months ;) so volume has its own quality beyond only the win rate.
Good Job!!.

And +1

Volume also help to get long term faster, meaning skill prevail vs low volume/short term luck, swings pass faster, you feel geting somewhere.
 
SeaRun

SeaRun

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Total posts
697
Chips
0
More than WR to aim you should aim for volume, some people tell me before than i´m obsesed with volume but the thing is that to get any $ you need to load a ton of volume
and that´s what most people don´t understand.

Sure, maybe could get a higher WR and reach 10bb if play 2-4 tables and focus on every action, but how much hands you going to load at the end of the month?, nothing that matters.

So your goal should be to make the most volume while still can keep any decent WR.

In your example of 25nl
I will prefeer to load 100k hands in 1 month at 3bb = 30bi´s x $25 = $750
than win at 10bb but load only 10-20k hands = 10-20 bi´s x $25 = $250-$500

Also with volume you get little more extra on reward incentives like more vpps = more Stellars more fpps = more cash rewards etc. Which is almost non existent with low volume.


So, answering your question, could you get a higher WR than 5bb?, maybe yes, but like you mention it does not look like much so you got 2 options, try to load more volume or try to move up in stakes where money start to mean something even with low volume.

The thing is that every higher stake going to be harder, so in theory is easy to just load more volume.

Logan, I'm curious as to how many tables you play.

On the average, I figure 75 hands per hour per table (my figures playing 4 tables at $5 NL FR).

So for me to get 100K hands, I would need to be playing 333 hours per month, or 11 hours a day, not realistic.

16 tables at a time, now we're down to 83 hours per month, or close to 3 hours per day, but I would REALLY question how many players are actually capable of playing that many tables for extended periods.

Now, it's obvious from your numbers that YOU can, and I'm also curious about your stats for a set of 100K hands in a month. Specifically, VPIP/PFR/3-Bet %/C-Bet FLop. None of my business I know, but just asking.

Back to the OP, I believe it's absolutely necessary to be successful enough to move up, we need to get away from thinking of bet sizes and calls, etc, in bbs instead of $$. Thinking of playing the game looking at bets and calls $$ in Micros won't do you any good playing $25 and $100 NL, etc. There's a number of reasons for this (IMHO) but that's probably a subject for another thread.
 
W

Weisssound

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Total posts
272
Chips
0
Winrate is really only one piece of the equation. All of that goes out the window, particularly at lower stakes, when you start looking for fish.

Ex. A

You play 80 hands on a table of regs and turn up 4BB over the course of 1hr.

Ex. B

You spend half an hour looking for a fish, you play the table for half an hour and get half the fish's stack. They're usually short stacked, so you maybe pull 25BB.


The weird difference is that spent half the time in Ex. B not playing. But at micros/low stakes, it's more about who you are playing than how much you are playing.
 
W

Weisssound

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Total posts
272
Chips
0
For example, I sat in on .25/.50 and .10/.25 this morning. My average BB = 0.37 .

After an hour of playing I'm up $13.00. Not that win rate is an effective calculation over what was maybe 150 hands, BUT, technically speaking that's a win rate of about 14BB/100hands.

The reason why this exemplifies my point is that $8.00 of that came off of the .10/.25 table. My win rate on that table vastly exceeded my win rate on the .25/.50 table. And the reason why is fairly obvious. It was much easier to play against the opponents on .10/.25.
 
scorpion1367

scorpion1367

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
Total posts
793
Chips
0
More than WR to aim you should aim for volume, some people tell me before than i´m obsesed with volume but the thing is that to get any $ you need to load a ton of volume
and that´s what most people don´t understand.

Sure, maybe could get a higher WR and reach 10bb if play 2-4 tables and focus on every action, but how much hands you going to load at the end of the month?, nothing that matters.

So your goal should be to make the most volume while still can keep any decent WR.

In your example of 25nl
I will prefeer to load 100k hands in 1 month at 3bb = 30bi´s x $25 = $750
than win at 10bb but load only 10-20k hands = 10-20 bi´s x $25 = $250-$500

Also with volume you get little more extra on reward incentives like more vpps = more Stellars more fpps = more cash rewards etc. Which is almost non existent with low volume.


So, answering your question, could you get a higher WR than 5bb?, maybe yes, but like you mention it does not look like much so you got 2 options, try to load more volume or try to move up in stakes where money start to mean something even with low volume.

The thing is that every higher stake going to be harder, so in theory is easy to just load more volume.

Interesting post I have never really done the big volume thing since I work fulltime .I have a decent win rate only 2 to 4 tabling but I may have to rethink this and put in some more volume ,I would think the more volume would level out variance as well.......scorp
 
LD1977

LD1977

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Total posts
3,091
Chips
0
In Zoom you can pull 1k hands/hour playing 4 tables, so 100k hands = 100 hours (3.3 hours per day).
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
In Zoom you can pull 1k hands/hour playing 4 tables, so 100k hands = 100 hours (3.3 hours per day).

This is insane, my goal for June is to play 100 hours and get 15-20k hands in on Bovada. Bovada, 4 table max, FR, about as slow as it gets haha. I want to try ZONE or 6max to get more hands in but I am sticking to full ring because my ultimate plan is to transition to a live player so meh.
 
Logan2

Logan2

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Total posts
4,054
Chips
0
Yeah, what LD mention is true.

1 table of zoom = 4 reg tables, so 4-tabling zoom = 16 reg tables, but on zoom you can tile your 4 tables easy and don´t have the distraction with tables poping/breaking like on reg games.
 
D

DunningKruger

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Total posts
1,030
Chips
0
Re: topic title. I didn't read the thread, but 5 is pretty good, especially if it's like 600NL. Even lower if you're doing much better than that then you're about to move up or you should be. Also when some ppl talk about winrates in BB they still mean ptbbs.

It depends how naturally horseshoeish you are imo. If you're as naturally lucky as I am for instance than 5bb/100 is pretty disappointing.
 
E

eelsthefan

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Jun 1, 2014
Total posts
9
Chips
0
horseshoeishness

When you consider that the vast majority (anywhere from 90-96% from what I have read) are losing money, I would say that 5bb/100 is pretty decent, and look to add more tables and keep an eye on your wr. As already mentioned, volume is going to be key. If you are playing 6max 25nl you would need to be running 6 tables with that wr to make minimum wage.

Also, if your horseshoeishness factor is below 2.75, you should probably just give up. DunningKruger has your crushed.
 
Top