5 Bet Bluffing

youregoodmate

youregoodmate

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This is not hand analysis!

I recently moved to 25nl and find the competition is slightly more aggressive. Today I found myself in a spot,

PokerStars - $0.25 NL ZOOM - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BTN: $35.13
SB: $38.64
BB: $32.42
UTG: $4.64
UTG+1: $25.00
MP: $31.68
MP+1: $59.19
LP: $25.00
Hero (CO): $31.30

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero has Q:heart: J:spade:

fold, fold, fold, fold, LP raises to $0.75, Hero raises to $2.25, fold, fold, fold, LP raises to $5.75, Hero raises to $31.30 and is all-in, fold

Hero wins $11.85

Villains stats are
hands 227
VPIP 15.42
PFR 12.33
Fold 3B 87.50
4B 18.18

My question is in which cases are we 5 bet bluffing? I felt in this situation that he is re-stealing a lot of the time.

Do we 5 bet bluff with hands that are less likely dominated by AK/AQ etc, or is it any hand when we feel villain is being a thief?

Im not asking anyone to analyse my hand just a heads up on 5 bet bluffing.

Cheers guys,
 
dooydoo

dooydoo

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I tend to stay away from it unless you have an awesome read and know he has 4b you a few too many times. In zoom it doesnt apply so well.

4b stats takes a few thousand hands to really be usable too. He might have picked up AA and KK and AK in 227 hands and was able to raise and 4b it. Now he has 18% 4b but is it really a loose range? Its just sample size that colours it towards aggression rather than his true 4b%

I dont see much of a point in 5b bluffing because i dont think players 4b bluff enough to make it work.

Best spots to 5b bluff are in co-bb situations where everyone knows everyone is stealing and restealing.

Best hands statistically are pairs. Followed by smaller suited connectors.
 
acky100

acky100

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Yeah i'd never wanna do it with a hand like QJ, small pocket pairs are cool though. There definitely will be guys who are 4betting too much, its more of a personal thing, note if he's 4betting a lot of your 3bets when you 3bet in the blinds or something, If you think he will fold to a 5bet around 50% of the time you will show instant profit from this. However, it's something i rarely do, people really aren't very aggressive at 25nl for the most part. If you can find a good candidate for this move then by all means go for it though.
 
youregoodmate

youregoodmate

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Thanks for the reply,

I like your points. But how does it not apply in zoom as well? Its poker all the same albeit slightly tighter.

And for Acky, yep I agree with everything you've said. This is the first time I have done it in about 40ks worth of hands, it just felt right at the time. Are we not flatting small pocket pairs anyway? Personally I never 3bet with small pocket pairs but i can imagine there are occasionally arguments for it.

Also his bet size looks quite weak,

Cheers guys.
 
Last edited:
acky100

acky100

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Yeah i hate 3betting small pocket pairs too, the only time i will 3bet them is if im planning on 5bet shoving, cause they make great hands to do that with.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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I don't think I've ever 5-bet bluffed. If someone is 4-betting light, then I just 5-bet wider for value. Two reasons for this:

1) Once they've 4-bet, you typically have shitty fold equity. Their range is typically pretty strong, even for maniac idiots.

2) Given that ~25ish bb's is a standard 4-bet, you'll need about 40% folds in order to justify shoving a garbage hand like QJ or pocket 2's.

However, all that said, most good players have a feel for when the other guy is fed up with you 3-betting his steals. So if you decide to make a move because you think you've got a good read once in every 20K hands or so, that's just good poker. Reads always trump cards & stats.

So yeah, Acky sucks at the preflop game, and don't 5-bet bluff. Unless you have a really really good reason to.
 
acky100

acky100

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Seriously c9, give me a break. what's with your dickish attitude towards me in every other thread these days? If this was 2p2 then that would be fine, but it's not. You don't know enough about my game to even make comments like that in the first place.

Also,

Once you've been 4bet by quite a lot of regs in steal spots, it's not uncommon to have A LOT of fold equity, this thread is all about choosing the right spots, so if we're choosing the right spots we definitely do not have poor fold equity. Again, a lot of reg's are really unbalanced in their 4bet defence to 3bets.

5betting wider for value vs these guys is right, but the hands we should choose to do this with are things like 55, so some people call it 5bet bluffing, others value. We still want a fold which is why people call it 5bet bluffing, but we gain a ton of value against the right villains just because we get more than enough folds if we choose good spots, which is why it can also be called value.
 
B

baudib1

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I wouldn't 5-bet bluff in Zoom.

If you're going to 5-bet bluff, offsuit broadways are some of the worst hands to do it with. People (especially in Zoom) can fold QQ/JJ to a 5-bet quite often, but unfortunately, you have blockers to that part of his range! Which means you're up against the full possible array of AA/KK/AK.

If you're going to 5-bet bluff, do it with hands like 22-55, which have decentish equity when you run into the top of their range, and Axs hands, which have decentish equity as well as blockers.
 
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