4 Bet shove ranges vs 3bet ranges??

I tried playing Pokerstove to figure this out but couldn't get the hang of it,so I did this manually. Please let me know if I am close or way off base. I converted an Excel spreadsheet to a .pdf as I do not know if I can paste a table here and could not upload the .xls

Note: I made an error in the 1st attachment. If you expect a villain's 3bet range is AA KK AK then KK should be a 4bet shove as you are 3 times more likely to face AK than AA in that distribution and thus you are ahead of that range.

when u have AA or KK, u should keep raising until the chips are in, imo.

fx20736 said:

If you expect a villain's 3bet range is AA KK AK then KK should be a 4bet shove as you are 3 times more likely to face AK than AA in that distribution and thus you are ahead of that range.

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You sure? Show your math.

WVHillbilly said:

You sure? Show your math.

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AK = 1.21%
AA = 0.45%

ya that's obviously, i didn't even notice that.

you need to brush up on combinatorics.

AKs fares better vs. a range of QQ+, AKs, AKo than QQ.

DUCY?

fx20736 said:

AK = 1.21%
AA = 0.45%

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I see no math shown with this post.

Ok there are 12 combos for all pairs, right? 4 Aces * 3 Remaining Aces

And since we HOLD KK,the AK combos are 4 Aces * 2 Remaining Kings or 8 combos.

So if AK/KK+ really is his range we'll see AA 12 out of 21 times (the other KK adds 1 combo), or 57% of the time.

Make sense?

WVHillbilly said:

I see no math shown with this post.

Ok there are 12 combos for all pairs, right? 4 Aces * 3 Remaining Aces

And since we HOLD KK,the AK combos are 4 Aces * 2 Remaining Kings or 8 combos.

So if AK/KK+ really is his range we'll see AA 12 out of 21 times (the other KK adds 1 combo), or 57% of the time.

Make sense?

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Yes, I was only thinking of the probability of being dealt the hole cards and not the reduced probability of your opponent having certain hands or even the outs once the three streets were dealt.

fx20736 said:

Yes, I was only thinking of the probability of being dealt the hole cards and not the reduced probability of your opponent having certain hands or even the outs once the three streets were dealt.

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This is why I love this forum, it quickly points out the fallacies in one's thinking. The 57% is startling to me but makes sense because at 2NL/ 5NL I see all-ins between KK & AA pretty regularly (I think it's happened to me 4 times when holding KK). So, if you knew your opponent's 3bet range was KK+/ AK then it seems that folding KK would be a reasonable option? Is there another line here? If you are going to be against AA more than 50% of the time then can you profitably flat a 3bet with KK? This makes sense if you were set-mining because the other option is what? Shove on a flop w/o an Ace or check-raise hoping your opp would either fold unimproved AK or call?

Has anyone ever made another OP regarding this subject on Cardschat that I can find and read? It seems that having a 4bet/ shove range vs 3bet ranges memorized would be very handy for a novice player when deciding how to react to these situations. Personally I sometimes feel lost when forced to make difficult decisions with only a short time frame to do so.

fx20736 said:

Yes, I was only thinking of the probability of being dealt the hole cards and not the reduced probability of your opponent having certain hands or even the outs once the three streets were dealt.

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Right, but that probability changes because of our cards.

fx20736 said:

This is why I love this forum, it quickly points out the fallacies in one's thinking. The 57% is startling to me but makes sense because at 2NL/ 5NL I see all-ins between KK & AA pretty regularly (I think it's happened to me 4 times when holding KK). So, if you knew your opponent's 3bet range was KK+/ AK then it seems that folding KK would be a reasonable option? Is there another line here? If you are going to be against AA more than 50% of the time then can you profitably flat a 3bet with KK? This makes sense if you were set-mining because the other option is what? Shove on a flop w/o an Ace or check-raise hoping your opp would either fold unimproved AK or call?

Has anyone ever made another OP regarding this subject on Cardschat that I can find and read? It seems that having a 4bet/ shove range vs 3bet ranges memorized would be very handy for a novice player when deciding how to react to these situations. Personally I sometimes feel lost when forced to make difficult decisions with only a short time frame to do so.

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I've seen one around here, it's in a C9 post somewhere.

Ak is more likely to be the hand than AA. for some reason Ak is a favorite hand to some players.

fx20736 said:

This is why I love this forum, it quickly points out the fallacies in one's thinking. The 57% is startling to me but makes sense because at 2NL/ 5NL I see all-ins between KK & AA pretty regularly (I think it's happened to me 4 times when holding KK). So, if you knew your opponent's 3bet range was KK+/ AK then it seems that folding KK would be a reasonable option? Is there another line here? If you are going to be against AA more than 50% of the time then can you profitably flat a 3bet with KK? This makes sense if you were set-mining because the other option is what? Shove on a flop w/o an Ace or check-raise hoping your opp would either fold unimproved AK or call?

Has anyone ever made another OP regarding this subject on Cardschat that I can find and read? It seems that having a 4bet/ shove range vs 3bet ranges memorized would be very handy for a novice player when deciding how to react to these situations. Personally I sometimes feel lost when forced to make difficult decisions with only a short time frame to do so.

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You're still thinking about this all wrong. Do we need to be better than 50% for the shove to be +Ev? How does stack size matter? How much money is in the pot? Lots more to consider.

WVHillbilly said:

You're still thinking about this all wrong. Do we need to be better than 50% for the shove to be +Ev? How does stack size matter? How much money is in the pot? Lots more to consider.

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Time to get some poker books. My thinking is pretty shallow right now.

fx20736 said:

Time to get some Poker books. My thinking is pretty shallow right now.

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http://www.qtippoker.com/ for a great beginning book on poker math.

WVHillbilly said:

I see no math shown with this post.

Ok there are 12 combos for all pairs, right? 4 Aces * 3 Remaining Aces

And since we HOLD KK,the AK combos are 4 Aces * 2 Remaining Kings or 8 combos.

So if AK/KK+ really is his range we'll see AA 12 out of 21 times (the other KK adds 1 combo), or 57% of the time.

Make sense?

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Am I reading this correctly? Are you saying a pocket pair has 12 combos? Or did you mean the combos of AA and KK combined? Because pocket pairs only have 6 combos. To confirm you can check PokerStove of course.

fx20736 said:

Has anyone ever made another OP regarding this subject on Cardschat that I can find and read? It seems that having a 4bet/ shove range vs 3bet ranges memorized would be very handy for a novice player when deciding how to react to these situations. Personally I sometimes feel lost when forced to make difficult decisions with only a short time frame to do so.

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https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/move-beyond-hand-chart-3-bets-133959/ while your there read the other articles in the golden archives.

stubzy11 said:

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/move-beyond-hand-chart-3-bets-133959/ while your there read the other articles in the golden archives.

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Thanks, good stuff. Maybe going forward I'll check for previous threads on a topic that I am looking for help with before making another OP on same.

kmind said:

Am I reading this correctly? Are you saying a pocket pair has 12 combos? Or did you mean the combos of AA and KK combined? Because pocket pairs only have 6 combos. To confirm you can check PokerStove of course.

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It's actually 12 combos. Stove shows AsAd the same as AdAs, so it would be double what Stove shows. Oddly though Stove list all permutations of hands like AKo

WVHillbilly said:

It's actually 12 combos. Stove shows AsAd the same as AdAs, so it would be double what Stove shows. Oddly though Stove list all permutations of hands like AKo

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AdAs and AsAd should be considered the same hand. Here's a link to help explain: http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerf...d-combinations-about-blockers-etc-161721.html

Also, I've included a screen shot from a tool to show that if we have KK and villain has KK+/AK then villain will have 1.27% of starting hands. Of this 1.27%, he'll have AA 0.51/1.27 % of the time which means he has it less than % of the time in your previous post.

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/5056/kkexample.png

*Please ignore the other numbers/actions I was just trying to show the %'s.

I'm obviously not good enough at math to show my math but I hope the resources I included help my case. I also come in peace! Just got confused and want to make sure who's right for the future.

kmind said:

AdAs and AsAd should be considered the same hand. Here's a link to help explain: http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerf...d-combinations-about-blockers-etc-161721.html

Also, I've included a screen shot from a tool to show that if we have KK and villain has KK+/AK then villain will have 1.27% of starting hands. Of this 1.27%, he'll have AA 0.51/1.27 % of the time which means he has it less than % of the time in your previous post.

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/5056/kkexample.png

*Please ignore the other numbers/actions I was just trying to show the %'s.

I'm obviously not good enough at math to show my math but I hope the resources I included help my case. I also come in peace! Just got confused and want to make sure who's right for the future.

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Yeah, you're absolutely correct. I have no idea where my brain got this idea that I needed to count the same hand twice. Might have to take my own advice and reread QTips book. Nice catch and thanks for pointing it out. I hope my flawed math didn't infect anyone else and I hope they read far enough down to see your posts.

Nice to have you here and please stick around and post more.

I suck but will most likely try to stay here. Appreciate the nice words. Honestly, the QTip book looks really good for a player like me. Would you highly recommend it for a not-so great math guy?

kmind said:

I suck but will most likely try to stay here. Appreciate the nice words. Honestly, the QTip book looks really good for a player like me. Would you highly recommend it for a not-so great math guy?

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It starts very basically but gives you everything you need for a solid mathematical foundation. I wrote a review here: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/learning-poker-57/book-review-poker-math-matters-183842/

three hands should be 4 betted imo... AA AK and KK. Queens aren't because you can be up against AK and then its like a coin flip. my 3 bet range is ace/facecard. King face, or pocket 8s and above.

sheesho said:

three hands should be 4 betted imo... AA AK and KK. Queens aren't because you can be up against AK and then its like a coin flip. my 3 bet range is ace/facecard. King face, or pocket 8s and above.

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you realize this makes you really easy to play against

baudib1 said:

you realize this makes you really easy to play against

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In a tournament with blind increase, but in a full ring cash game he does not need to engage you to make money. And if he does, hell be stronger.