3betting SCs (moved from isoing limpers thread)

F

fx20736

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PokerStars - $0.05 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3
UTG: $3.01
UTG+1: $5.03
MP: $3.76
MP+1: $5.10
LP: $7.21
CO: $1.78
BTN: $7.48
SB: $5.00
Hero (BB): $5.00
SB posts SB $0.02, Hero posts BB $0.05
Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has 9 7
UTG calls $0.05, fold, fold, MP+1 calls $0.05, LP raises to $0.25, fold, BTN calls $0.25, fold, Hero raises to $0.75, fold, fold, fold, BTN calls $0.50
Flop: ($1.87, 2 players) Q 8 9
Hero bets $0.75, fold
Hero wins $1.78
 
-Phil Ivey27

-Phil Ivey27

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PokerStars - $0.05 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3
UTG: $3.01
UTG+1: $5.03
MP: $3.76
MP+1: $5.10
LP: $7.21
CO: $1.78
BTN: $7.48
SB: $5.00
Hero (BB): $5.00
SB posts SB $0.02, Hero posts BB $0.05
Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has 9 7
UTG calls $0.05, fold, fold, MP+1 calls $0.05, LP raises to $0.25, fold, BTN calls $0.25, fold, Hero raises to $0.75, fold, fold, fold, BTN calls $0.50
Flop: ($1.87, 2 players) Q 8 9
Hero bets $0.75, fold
Hero wins $1.78

Seems like your inviting one of them to call here, a call is not exactly what you want with this type of hand OOP, you at least want some fold equity to make this move right. I think..
 
Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

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PokerStars - $0.05 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3
UTG: $3.01
UTG+1: $5.03
MP: $3.76
MP+1: $5.10
LP: $7.21
CO: $1.78
BTN: $7.48
SB: $5.00
Hero (BB): $5.00
SB posts SB $0.02, Hero posts BB $0.05
Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has 9 7
UTG calls $0.05, fold, fold, MP+1 calls $0.05, LP raises to $0.25, fold, BTN calls $0.25, fold, Hero raises to $0.75, fold, fold, fold, BTN calls $0.50
Flop: ($1.87, 2 players) Q 8 9
Hero bets $0.75, fold
Hero wins $1.78

From nit to spewtard.
 
Stu_Ungar

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its just not a hand you want to 3bet
 
D

Deceitful_Frank

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I am coming around to the idea that 3betting polarised ranges OOP from teh blinds = spew.

I get the impression that people are far more likely to call a 3bet when they have position and this means that we should be expanding our value range and not trying to make him fold with mid SCs. I ran some reports and filters in PT3 and it appears that villians are atleast twice as likely to call our 3bet when they have position.

This would mean I think that when I look at the overall fold to 3bet stat in my hud and it says 70%, Villian is actually folding OOP to 3bets over 80% and IP like 50%!

We should therefore be really opening up our bluffs when we have position.

Now I guess Stu will reply and tell me that the last 160 words were utter nonsence!
 
Stu_Ungar

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I
Now I guess Stu will reply and tell me that the last 160 words were utter nonsence!

What makes you think Id take the time to count them? :)

But yes you are right people do call more IP than OOP.

Villian is in the HJ so his range is still fairly narrow.

SC play well in deep pots IP and you have created a HU pot OOP

Your 3bet range would have to be 20-25% + to include 97s If you are only 3betting as a bluff occasionally then why not 3bet bluf AX..it has a blocker plus more equity than 97s.
 
WVHillbilly

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Your 3bet range would have to be 20-25% + to include 97s.
What??? Only if he's 3betting everything from AA down to 97s but that obviously not the case. A 3bet range of QQ+/AK and all suited gappers 75s-J9s is like 4.1%, 2/3 of which is value. I don't hate 3betting 97s at all BUT you need to know your villains enough to know that they're usually going to fold and at 5nl I doubt that's the case at all.
 
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What??? Only if he's 3betting everything from AA down to 97s but that obviously not the case. A 3bet range of QQ+/AK and all suited gappers 75s-J9s is like 4.1%, 2/3 of which is value. I don't hate 3betting 97s at all BUT you need to know your villains enough to know that they're usually going to fold and at 5nl I doubt that's the case at all.

I am very fond of the idea of 3betting 97s, but not OOP and not such a small amount.
 
Stu_Ungar

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What??? Only if he's 3betting everything from AA down to 97s but that obviously not the case.

Why would he favour 97s over A3s? A3 = more equity, so before he really gets to the SC and SG he would show better results by 3betting Some suited aces and a few low off suit aces.

So then if adds the SG, he should probably put in the SCs.. they dont playall that differently to suited gappers and before long we have a range of at least 15%.. throw in a couple more hands and we hit 20%

So overall you end up with this huge 3bet range against people who like to call.

THe idea is to 3bet your weaker hands as a bluff, but to pick the best of your weakest hands to do it with. I can think of a ton of weak hands that do better than 97s. So the only reason to have 97s in your 3bet range is because you have exausted the profitability of all stronger hands in this weak class.. I doubt that has happened.
 
Stu_Ungar

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Fold equity, and if they do call you can rep a big hand IP, or you can hit the flop hard and you have a hand.

You dont have enough FE to do this.

The single biggest mistake people make is to call.

Forums are not littered with HHs where people are saying you need to call more, the most common advice is that you need to fold more.

Therfore you are 3betting hands which, when called, rarely flop anything.

When you miss you have 9 high and this makes future aggression in the hand difficult.

Look at the 3 reasons to bet.

Worse can call: nothing worse than 9 high calls.

Better can fold: some better will fold but a lot of better hands will call. T9o has you dominated and 22 is ahead of you now.

Collect dead money: It depends on the position and tendencies of the opener, but remember people like to see flops.
 
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You dont have enough FE to do this.

The single biggest mistake people make is to call.

Forums are not littered with HHs where people are saying you need to call more, the most common advice is that you need to fold more.

Therfore you are 3betting hands which, when called, rarely flop anything.

When you miss you have 9 high and this makes future aggression in the hand difficult.

Look at the 3 reasons to bet.

Worse can call: nothing worse than 9 high calls.

Better can fold: some better will fold but a lot of better hands will call. T9o has you dominated and 22 is ahead of you now.

Collect dead money: It depends on the position and tendencies of the opener, but remember people like to see flops.

Worse can call: We are 3betting light , where are moves are not really being based off of hand strength so that is not one of our primary concerns.

Better can fold: Better should fold if they have seen your image, of course we all know what should be done is not what is done and yes you are easily dominated by T9o and beat by 22 but when you 3bet with Ax higher Aces, that are bound to be there sometimes, dominate you (blocker or not) and you are also beat by 22.

Also, my 3bet is 7% so even though I 3bet with 97s sometimes, AXs sometimes too, that does not mean I am 3betting with 25% of my range. It is positional, situational, player dependant, image dependent, etc. you already know..
 
Stu_Ungar

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Better can fold: Better should fold if they have seen your image

Your image is that of a loose 3better.

In a vacume you can bet ATC. But in normal play people will notice. You are 3betting hands like 97s and 85o so you are going to be 3betting a lot. Otherwise why would you 3bet 85o yet fold A3o? Why would you bluff with 85o yet fold A3o just to keep your 3bet stats down?

So in reality you are creating an image of exactly what you are.. a light 3 better. Because, hey, you are either 3betting a lot or making some wierd choices in what you fold just to keep those stats down!
 
Stu_Ungar

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Also, my 3bet is 7% so even though I 3bet with 97s sometimes, AXs sometimes too, that does not mean I am 3betting with 25% of my range. It is positional, situational, player dependant, image dependent, etc. you already know..

Your OVERALL 3bet stat is 7% but when filtered positionally it should easily be 12%+

When I see a guy with a 3bet stat of 7% my first thought is to look at his 3betting by position.
 
Stu_Ungar

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I think what you need to do is to think about the difference between "any 2 cards" and "every 2 cards"

Whilst you know a situation is profitable to raise ATC, you also know that you cannot do this every single time so whilst you can play ATC you cant play ETC.

Therefore you need to decide what to play and what to fold. So the question becomes which are the strongest of the weakest playable hands? Rather than randomly playing a selection of hands from the "too weak to call with range" do you think you would see an increase in winrate by playing the same number of overall hands but making sure they were the strongest hands available in that weak range?
 
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fx20736

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From nit to spewtard.

I was a marginal winner playing a nitty style at 2nl and so far a break even player at 5nl (although the sample is not huge). I slowly have come to the realization that playing my hole cards has made me predictable, exploitable and subject to swings in variance. When I realized that over 30k hands my win rate for 3betting was 305bb I decided to do it more. You're right that one of the big mistakes Micro players make is to call too much because their conditioned reflex is to call when in doubt instead of folding (or raising). Usually when they call a 3bet they get knocked out of their comfort zone and unless they connect to the flop they fold pretty easily. If villain is raising preflop x and I 3bet to 2.5x and they fold 80% of the time then I win 2x. If they call I need only continue when I flop some decent equity because even if I check/folded every time I only lose (.2*2.5x=.5x) so my net EV for 3betting and check/folding when they call is 1.5x. Since in most instances x=3.5bb then my profit per hand when 3betting is 5.25bb. That is essentially the same long term EV of AA. Of course alot of the time I am 3betting for value so I stand to flop a fair deal of equity and since I am creating a table image as a light 3bettor then I stand a better chance to get a call when I have AA/KK, which is a little nicer than the nit raising UTG with AA and collecting the blinds.

Now this is all a brave new world to me so I will obviously make some mistakes and make some poor choices of hand selection or situations but for every bad choice I make I make up for it with the correct ones. Soon I expect to settle down a little and use selective 3betting as a powerful tool to increase my winrate.

Does this really make me a spewtard?


Why would he favour 97s over A3s? A3 = more equity, so before he really gets to the SC and SG he would show better results by 3betting Some suited aces and a few low off suit aces.

So then if adds the SG, he should probably put in the SCs.. they dont playall that differently to suited gappers and before long we have a range of at least 15%.. throw in a couple more hands and we hit 20%

So overall you end up with this huge 3bet range against people who like to call.

THe idea is to 3bet your weaker hands as a bluff, but to pick the best of your weakest hands to do it with. I can think of a ton of weak hands that do better than 97s. So the only reason to have 97s in your 3bet range is because you have exausted the profitability of all stronger hands in this weak class.. I doubt that has happened.


Here you go!

PokerStars - $0.05 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3
SB: $2.64
BB: $3.00
UTG: $3.36
UTG+1: $4.81
MP: $4.00
Hero (MP+1): $6.49
LP: $5.00
CO: $6.10
BTN: $5.62
SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05
Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has A 4
fold, fold, MP raises to $0.20, Hero raises to $0.50, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, MP calls $0.30
Flop: ($1.07, 2 players) 6 9 8
MP checks, Hero bets $0.50, fold
Hero wins $1.02
 
-Phil Ivey27

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I am not 3betting every time I get 97s, nor every time I get A3s, it is situational and I make sure it does not look like I am 3betting a lot, so I will muck those A3s hands for 3 more rounds just to do it with 97s the 4th round.
 
Stu_Ungar

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I am not 3betting every time I get 97s, nor every time I get A3s, it is situational and I make sure it does not look like I am 3betting a lot, so I will muck those A3s hands for 3 more rounds just to do it with 97s the 4th round.

You would achieve the same overall 3betting frequency if you just played the better hands.
 
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I also hate getting involved with weak aces that can get you in real trouble sometimes.
 
CerberAcE

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Do people really stick to specific cards to 3bet bluff with?

I think when the right spot presents itself you do it with ATC...rather than waiting for a good spot and a hand that plays ok post flop.
 
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Deceitful_Frank

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Do people really stick to specific cards to 3bet bluff with?

I think when the right spot presents itself you do it with ATC...rather than waiting for a good spot and a hand that plays ok post flop.

Stu explained this a lot better but you really should try to stick to a range and be mindful that you are not usually playing the hand in a vacuum. Every action that you take will affect your table image and if villain is using tracking software even the most clueless monkey will cotton on.

Plus, your light hands should be those that are seldom dominated by the strong hands villian is likely to call your 3bet with. 3betting in itself should make you a profit even if you auto fold if called. But, every once in a while, villian will call with AK, make top pair but you could flop a monster and stack him.
 
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LuckyChippy

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Do people really stick to specific cards to 3bet bluff with?

I think when the right spot presents itself you do it with ATC...rather than waiting for a good spot and a hand that plays ok post flop.

If you 3-bet someone as a bluff, you're going to be able to play 76s much more easily post-flop than K6 off. Obviously we want him to fold, but some percentage of the time he will call (and 4-bet). You can flop big draws and big made hands which you can play fast and generate FE. Also if the flop comes down KQ4 in a 3-bet pot, you fold your 76 easy, wtf am I doing now with K6? Call one bet? 2? Call flop fold turn or just fold flop? With 76s you're actually going to have flops you like a LOT more often and you're going to generate a lot more equity, both hand and folding.

Also an interesting part about bluffing with something like A4s compared to A7 as a bluff, is when you develop 3 and 4 betting dynamics later on. Obv this won't happen until you get to people who play a proper 3-bet game and can fold, but compare A5s to A5o.


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 54.585% 53.85% 00.74% 243423076 3328914.00 { JJ+, AKs, J9s, T8s, 97s, 86s, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, AKo }
Hand 1: 45.415% 44.68% 00.74% 201967352 3328914.00 { A5s }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.701% 56.95% 00.75% 772274724 10232784.00 { JJ+, AKs, J9s, T8s, 97s, 86s, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, AKo }
Hand 1: 42.299% 41.54% 00.75% 563404476 10232784.00 { A5o }

3bb is most "regs" win-rates.


The point I'm making there is by selecting hands with that little bit more equity for 3 and 4 bet bluffs makes a huge difference long term and will make your short term decisions easier.
 
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