3-handed Trip J's Q kicker, Fold river?

BvBrMTW

BvBrMTW

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So yea, newly formed table, played a few hands with Button but BB is completely unknown. So would you fold/call the river?

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (3 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

Button ($28.41)
Hero (SB) ($46.45)
BB ($25)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J
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, Q
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1 fold, Hero bets $0.75, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.50) 5
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, 4
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, J
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(2 players)
Hero bets $1, BB raises to $3, Hero calls $2

Turn: ($7.50) 2
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(2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $5.75, Hero calls $5.75

River: ($19) J
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(2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $15.50 (All-In),
 
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ScottishMatt

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With no info I fold either flop or turn. I probably play against much worse players though. I know it never happens at my stakes, but are people raising draws here?

Yeah I dunno how it plays at higher stakes. I can't imagine anyone raising the flop with less than a combo draw, and I dunno if people triple barrel bluff here.

I think the best way to look at this is to stop simply asking what other people would do, and look at the reasons for doing such actions. I would rather be told why someone does x, rather than be told that x is the best move. The important thing is understanding why you are taking these actions, because knowing that means you can implement it in other areas, as opposed to only knowing that it is best in y situation.
 
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rawone

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Wow, this is an interesting one for sure. I think that maybe the real clue here was pre-flop. His call of your raise pre-flop suggests he might have had a hand, something in the AT or better range, or he was solidly fishing with a pair of suited connectors or something like that.

Flop tells you a whole lot more. Difference here is that pre-flop he just called you, after the flop he is raising you. If he thinks you are bluffing, he still has to think he has more than your bluff. It's about even at this point with the idea that he hit well, like he has a J, or his suited connectors are 54. He could have gotten very lucky and have J4 or J5 suited, which means he is on two pair.

The turn tells you a lot more. Your check is blank, he bets a pretty solid amount, suggesting at that point that he has a reasonable made hand, that the brick 2 means nothing to him. Your call here is probably a very small bit loose, but not unreasonable.

The river makes it worse. The only way you get out here is that he has one or two pair, or Jx rather than xJ. Worst scenerio is J4/J5, because as your hand improved to trips, his hand turned into a house. The only clue here maybe is that he felt his hand was made before the final J.

I would say that, my guess is either he played 54 suited and hit good, thinks his 2 pair is great, or he had two high diamonds (even AK) and was chasing the flush to the end, and left screwed, he is trying to push you out.

If you make it to the end, sadly you almost have to call. I agree with ScottishMatt here, it probably would have been better to fold to his 5.75 bet, but once you have made that call, the $15.50 on the all in is ALMOST a good call, your $15 will get you back about $35 or 2.3 times your bet. I think you shouldn't have put yourself in the place to make that choice, you could have stopped earlier.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Call. Not even close imo. 3-handed and BvB he can have a lot worse (including worse Jx hands). The only reason to check the river is to snap off a bluff shove because you don't think he'll call worse, so snap it off.
 
BvBrMTW

BvBrMTW

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Thanks guys, Guess I should've called there usually in the long run, folded tho, I thought I'd only beat a bluff there, and triple barreling isn't very likely there.
He showed pocket 5's
 
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ScottishMatt

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Call. Not even close imo. 3-handed and BvB he can have a lot worse (including worse Jx hands). The only reason to check the river is to snap off a bluff shove because you don't think he'll call worse, so snap it off.

Doesn't the fact that it is BvB mean if he was making moves he would be doing it preflop and not postflop. I'm thinking it is less likely he would be messing around in this situation due to the likely hood that if he was making a play it would have been preflop.

I thought the BvB factor simply changed dynamics for 3-bet re-stealing and stuff preflop.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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no way he shoves river with worse here, he'll raise flop + barrel turns with draws/air but unlikely he shoves the river with a J or raises the flop with like J9s or something..

combo wise its meh but still I wanna fold, might be exploitable but doubt anyone is at 25nl.

you can't just say 'call its 3 handed and BvB' if the guy never triples worse
 
Ducky7

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Agree'ing its a fold, just coz its 3 handed doesnt mean people are good enough to adjust, at higher limits maybe but at 25nl still think he only doubles air, and never pots the river with it
 
WVHillbilly

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I guess you guys play a different game than me (or I'm just such a station that I actually SEE peoples cards here a lot) but I see missed draws and worse Jx hands here enough to make the call profitable.
 
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paulyd

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thats an easy call. He could be doing this with busted draws. Also if he had a worst jack, he would do the same since he put u on ak for your pf raise.

Sometimes they might even be doing this with 99 or 1010.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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yupp, everytime someone opens pre they have AK obv

paulyd to join team stars online
 
WeenieSVK

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very nice fold man, really tough spot, I hate this ones :D . I dont know If I would be able to fold this. Probably only little bit of tilt needed and I would call it :D (even If I was 90% sure that he is better) :D But his aggression on flop and turn gave you info that he made his really strong hand right there, or he is completely bluffing :)
 
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rawone

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Actually, I will take one more stab at this one:

After the river, what other better hands are there out there? You have the top set. There is no flushes, and the only straight would require him to have been in with A3. The only other scare is him having Jx.

Food for thought.
 
slowhand

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Call - fist pump - maybe go cry in corner after.
 
dj11

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I would have called, in fact I call that hand all the time, and lose a lot..... Probably 4 times today alone...:(
 
BvBrMTW

BvBrMTW

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Actually, I will take one more stab at this one:

After the river, what other better hands are there out there? You have the top set. There is no flushes, and the only straight would require him to have been in with A3. The only other scare is him having Jx.

Food for thought.

Actually, I will take one more stab at this one:

After the river, what other better hands are there out there? You have the top set. There is no flushes, and the only straight would require him to have been in with A3. The only other scare is him having Jx.

Food for thought.

Hands that beat me
J2. J4. J5, AJ, KJ, 22, 44, 55

Those are the hands he could have, now J2,J4,J5 aren't that likely, but he'd play a set the same way.

Hands I beat (not including total air)
J3, J6, J7, J8, J9, JT,
 
LuckyBundy13

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I think what's key is that you have no info on BB. Fold.
 
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rawone

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Hands that beat me
J2. J4. J5, AJ, KJ, 22, 44, 55

Those are the hands he could have, now J2,J4,J5 aren't that likely, but he'd play a set the same way.

Hands I beat (not including total air)
J3, J6, J7, J8, J9, JT,


Yes, but out of J2. J4. J5, AJ, KJ, 22, 44, 55 - some of them would not general be hands that anyone except a real idiot would raise, which is why the player information would tell you more. Your biggest issue here in the end is that your hitting on the river in face handed him the nuts.

Knowing more about the player, you might have twigged onto the idea that he wasn't play crap.
 
Cafeman

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Ooooo this is close, so probs doesn't matter too much :D
 
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