3 Bet pots in Zoom

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kmart99

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One of the most crucial elements of a HUD besides vpip and pfr is the 3B stat(s), but in Zoom I'm most often dealing with unknowns.

I'm a winning 10NL player at ring, but I'm a losing player at 10NLz and a losing player at 25NL+.

One of my biggest struggles at 10NLz is 3bet pots.

I generally categorize players' 3bet strategies in to 4 categories.

1) Really tight, these players fold +75-90% to 3B but not often to a flop Cbet if they call pre. Vs them I 3bet very wide but cbet very tight. These same players generally have a very low 3b% themselves so I also don't call their 3bets with worse than AK, or even JJ sometimes.

2) Serial 3bettors Cbettors. This was insanely profitable 5 years ago and these guys still exist. Vs them I'm calling my high suited connectors, suited Broadways, and KQo+ and calling down post flop fairly wide as well. Any top pair is often good enough .

3) loose - it's like they've realized that ppl are 3betting wider so they're calling preflop wider and then just calling down a little too often.

4). Solid regs - these players 3bet a polarized range preflop, then just play me straight forward post flop if I call.

It'ss like a 4 way game of rock paper scissors. ie
Being a #2 vs a #1 is optimal and being a #3 vs a #2 is optimal. Being a #1 vs. #3 is optimal. Being a #4 is ok against all of them and being a #4 vs. #4 is a tie.:)




In Zoom though.... These 3bet pots are a nightmare for me. There are a few regs that I'm familiar with but thousands of others with whom I'm unfamiliar so I'm generally lost post flop when deciding which strategy to take. Going with just solid play seems ok but why would I even bother with zoom since my winrate will always be lower?

I've heard ppl say to try and generalize everyone else in to one category. So how is the overall pool of players playing? Which works for 2nlz and 5nlz but at 10NLz there seems to often be such a mix of regs and fish that I'm really not sure.

Example:

Hero opens to 2.5x in the CO w 10s9s
SB 3bets to 9.5x
Hero?
In a ring game the choice is often easy. Vs a #1 fold. Vs a #2 call etc..
If I make this call vs a #1 it is a massive mistake. If I make this fold vs a #2 it is a big mistake as well. So Wtf do I do?
 
Moonchild

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Good post, but no good answer from me, 'cause I experience the same problem. I'm interested what others have to say about this.
 
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te7ris

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Too me it looks like you have it all figured out ;) Noone here can play the psychic for you.. My advice would be to play less 3bet pots with marginal hands and try to figure what ppl do with your strong hands in 3bet pots.
 
Odysseus101

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I prefer to bet "pot" rather than 3BB if no-one ahead of me has bet. It makes more of a statement, and separates me from the players who bet 3BB when they have anything decent.
The "pot" bet preflop is usually 3.5xBB anyway, the small extra gives added oomph.
If I just want to see if I can pay a bit to get the flop, I'll see the BB or maybe 2BB. Frankly, I almost never do a 3BB bet. I don't see the point.
 
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kmart99

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I prefer to bet "pot" rather than 3BB if no-one ahead of me has bet. It makes more of a statement, and separates me from the players who bet 3BB when they have anything decent.
The "pot" bet preflop is usually 3.5xBB anyway, the small extra gives added oomph.
If I just want to see if I can pay a bit to get the flop, I'll see the BB or maybe 2BB. Frankly, I almost never do a 3BB bet. I don't see the point.


When I say 3bet, I mean I raise pre flop and someone else re-raises me.
 
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Jacoval2010

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always is all in in zoom... the best move
 
fly2tsky

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I dont like Zoom & SnG structure kind of thing. online poker has given some disadvantages already therefore playing Z & SnG is insanely hard.
 
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Matvei Kolesnick

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2) Serial 3bettors Cbettors. This was insanely profitable 5 years ago and these guys still exist.


Serial 3bet started already 10 years ago. The fact that they are now the remaining is logical, everything new is well forgotten old :), so to speak with the modification. So, what I've encountered on Zoom tables, it is a lot of bluffing, because and format contributes a lot of unknown players.
 
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chemdawg42

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In Zoom you want to be the one 3-betting the pot way more often than the one cold-calling the 3bet. The same reason that forces you to respect opponent's 3bets will apply the opposite direction. So 3-bet slightly weaker holdings in position more and rarely call 3-bets, only fold or 4-bet.
 
antonis32123

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I guess either I would stop playing zoom this level :) or I would play more passively if I were in your position , play more like a tight. this would decrease the losses from over beting /calling too much 3 betting from that point you choose how much you will ''open'' your range for playing cards .. So , at that point , you have to make decisions based only on your carsd and position and no tedencies of foes ,cause this info is no available so you choose range of cards which will be smaller ,more tight , I haven't tested in action , I am not sure , it's just an idea man :)
 
MsNutHand

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When playing zoom where i do not have so much info about the style of the opponent normally so I fold for 3-bets when it comes from initial positions mainly because the opponents can fold faster to chose better hands so 3-BETS comes from stronger hands...
 
TheMagic

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I liked your viewpoint. I love to play Zoom , I believe that you can easily minimize the variance, playing the correct hands and studying your opponents. When I´m not playing, I like to enter in Zoom NL´s and start watching players moves, to analyse and make notes about them.

The biggest type is : in Zoom games players tend to be more looser than in other games, they want to make money fast, and don´t care about pot odds, and the mathematical game.
 
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chronical

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generaly speaking I fold alot at zoom on 3 bet.
Many people at micro mtt/cash/zoom play fit-fold, so even if I run in to reg trying to steal it cost less loosing 3-5bb than loosing 1-3$ to a wierd set.
 
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Morly4

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Me too, you risk too much at this point :D
 
vinylspiros

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just fold if you are OOP and if ur IP and deep enough call and play good postflop depending on board is my opinion.
 
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rhombus

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just fold if you are OOP and if ur IP and deep enough call and play good postflop depending on board is my opinion.

IP what are you calling with and how deep do you need to be.
Also do you have a 4 betting range
 
vinylspiros

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IP what are you calling with and how deep do you need to be.
Also do you have a 4 betting range


depends on villain.

If they have a 3bet higher than 6-7 % im probably calling with suited connectors Ax, all PP's, and play according to action.


this may not be correct(im sure it isnt), but i do it alot since i feel like i have good postflop game . and im IP which is critical.

I dont have solid ranges though. I think Figaroo can give more details as to what is good and whats not.
 
Shumkoolie

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In Zoom though.... These 3bet pots are a nightmare for me. There are a few regs that I'm familiar with but thousands of others with whom I'm unfamiliar so I'm generally lost post flop when deciding which strategy to take. Going with just solid play seems ok but why would I even bother with zoom since my winrate will always be lower?

Is this because you're out of position too often? In my experience, those who 3bet pre who are in position are more difficult to navigate (though nothing revolutionary about that). :p

Also, put in a 4 bet here and there. People are still going to pay that the kind of respect a 3bet did back up to about 2008-2009.

Example:

Hero opens to 2.5x in the CO w 10s9s
SB 3bets to 9.5x
Hero?
In a ring game the choice is often easy. Vs a #1 fold. Vs a #2 call etc..
If I make this call vs a #1 it is a massive mistake. If I make this fold vs a #2 it is a big mistake as well. So Wtf do I do?

SB is making an atrocious mistake 3betting to 9.5x after a 2.5x pre-flop raise. They're just killing any equity that they could have picked up. Plus, unless they're leveling you, villain in that spot has a monster and may be hoping somebody piles with AK a lesser pocket pair.

I prefer to bet "pot" rather than 3BB if no-one ahead of me has bet. It makes more of a statement, and separates me from the players who bet 3BB when they have anything decent.
The "pot" bet preflop is usually 3.5xBB anyway, the small extra gives added oomph.
If I just want to see if I can pay a bit to get the flop, I'll see the BB or maybe 2BB. Frankly, I almost never do a 3BB bet. I don't see the point.

Are you doing this with your bluffs as well as your made hands? (where you're betting pot). Do you find that strategy biting you every so often? Because what happens if somebody just flats you here? You've built up a fairly sizable pot just after one street, with two to go. In a way, you may be backing yourself into a corner here.

I liked your viewpoint. I love to play Zoom , I believe that you can easily minimize the variance, playing the correct hands and studying your opponents. When I´m not playing, I like to enter in Zoom NL´s and start watching players moves, to analyse and make notes about them.

The biggest type is : in Zoom games players tend to be more looser than in other games, they want to make money fast, and don´t care about pot odds, and the mathematical game.

^^^ This is pretty accurate, but I think there's a lot to be said about aggression because that is what will corner the thinking players who are playing the odds into potentially making mistakes. Applying pressure in the right spots is profitable, but it's a matter of finding those spots.
 
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baraka304

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My advice is to open 2x preflop with such hands
 
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braveslice

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I’m complete lost in 3bet spots too. I even ended up 4bet bluffing with QQ vs tight player pre because I didn’t want to see the flop.
 
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651crusher

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I make standard 3xbb raise pre and only flat 3 bets w set mining or to trap with AA only. I am always running into aces when I have kings in zone so I am very cautious playing all over pairs to a board and I feel that I may be playing to nitty. I posted in another 25nl zone thread about player tendencies and I am wondering what others experience in terms of barreling and or the player pool inflating pots only to overplay made hands like JJ+
 
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651crusher

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I find also that 4 bets are always ACES and I haven't seen any 4 bet bluffs so far. Is it reasonable to make more bluffs in zone since a lot of players will hit fold and move on?

I'm trying to hone in on my bluffing and bluff catching strategy in zone
 
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BRADYboy2

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I find also that 4 bets are always ACES and I haven't seen any 4 bet bluffs so far. Is it reasonable to make more bluffs in zone since a lot of players will hit fold and move on?

I'm trying to hone in on my bluffing and bluff catching strategy in zone

I have came across players who know alot of players 3bet bluff nowadays hoping to steal pots in zoom so they'll 4 bet bluff hoping to take pot from you but if you go over the top with a 5 bet they auto fold, it doesn't happen alot but watch out for these players and yes 4bet usually has a huge hand but not all the time, some players 3/4 bet hoping players will just hit fold and move on for a better spot as you're putting them on a premium hand most of the time.
 
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