Is 2NL pretty tough or am I bad?

Ok, I just answer my own question, I am bad, but the bloody 2NL seems really tough to beat!

I only played around 1K hands so far, I play for 2h and study for 4-5 hours, so I am in full learning mode, I am not really concerned in making money atm.

I play on 888 portugal/Spain, so the pool is very limited and I see the same people all the time.

I am showing 44bb/100 but it doesn't represent my gameplay. I am a solid TAG, like 20/18.

My problem is that everyone seems super LAG. My HUD shows me like 35/25 sort stuff for most opponents! And they are all super aggressive. I am constantly getting 3/4bet, the opponents' ranges seem like 70% but surprisingly they also make pretty clever plays, like check raising, trapping, etc.

Wtf can I do against this? Is it the shallow pool of players? Are they really good at 2nl or is my impression?

Any opinions please?

I think micro stakes can be brutal and it really depends on the players that you are playing. Sometimes you think they are being clever but in reality they just don't respect the stakes because it is for very little money. Other times the players are real grinders and what feels like you being targeted is in reality just them playing their hands.

My suggestion is to look through your hand histories and review the hands that are played. Its probably best if you filter for hands that get to showdown so that you can see villains cards. A part of studying is not only learning new concepts and implementing them but also taking the time to study your opponents tendencies so that the next time you find your self in that spot you will be better prepared to play against them.

When i played at 1c 2c when i first started learning. This is exactly it started and learning.

Your opponents are bad, but you are worse

Somethings i focused on when i first started and it helped.

1. Learn the basics, not just know of things but to actually learn to use critical principals.

2. Learn the lingo.. Learn how people talk and learn what it is all about.

3. Spend at least an hour a day watching a professional commentate how he plays and explains why he does so... Even watching high stakes poker helped me a few years ago.

4. Spend an hour playing a day but spend another hour analyzing your games, use the forums to post your hands and ask for feeedback.

5. Don't target everything it's impossible to learn everything within a day a week or a year or even a life time to be honest. Go into a session and say i'm going to work on 3betting or folding out of position constantly even if it means im folding AA... It's all discipline.

6. Audio books/books are key at learning new principals and helps with mental game.

7. Have fun... no point stressing over everything if your not enjoying it, but i had fun play implementing new moves at the table and changing my style from time to time.

8. Try and do the samething over and over again, this sounds bad but it also builds your experience up with the same situations overtime and it'll give you an edge against your opponents especially if you know the particular spots and your opponent gets lost

Anyways there you go, have fun... but be consistent with playing and it'll come together in time. As long as you focus on building your game ground up rather than just winning, you'll improve for long term instead of fooling yourself when you win short term thinking your a pro overnight.


P.S We can't beat people if we can't identify our opponents weaknesses.

Thank you for your replies!

Yes, I will def keep studying, I just have to select the right things to study I guess.

I totally watch pro players online, I just think that their game is not applicable to 2NL reality, they play a more GTO focused game, while I should learn exploitative first.

About studying your opponents, how do you guys takes notes? I noticed my notes get a mess in a few days! For example to determine the ranges I write like: 3B 3x BB = KTs. So "3bet 3 times bb in big blind with KTs." This works fine until I have like 20 lines of stuff and it becomes a mess lol. Also, how do you takes notes on postflop play? I write like "1B 3x flop OEFSD, TcJc2d, call raise 2x, BB = 98s" But this seems too cumbersome... Takes to write and worse, TO READ, it just takes me ages to go through all the notes when I have to take a quick decision. Is there a more elegant way to take notes and organise them?

I didn't mention that the tables I play at are never full. Most times I am playing against 3, max 4 opponents! I think this changes the game dynamics a lot. How do I adapt to this? Do I expand my ranges, since there is less potential competitors with good hands? Maybe this is the reason everyone is so aggressive? They just aren't afraid to step on someone's premium hand, since the less players the less likely those hands are?

Thanks for the replies!

PokerPT2645 said:

Thank you for your replies!

Yes, I will def keep studying, I just have to select the right things to study I guess.

I totally watch pro players online, I just think that their game is not applicable to 2NL reality, they play a more GTO focused game, while I should learn exploitative first.

About studying your opponents, how do you guys takes notes? I noticed my notes get a mess in a few days! For example to determine the ranges I write like: 3B 3x BB = KTs. So "3bet 3 times bb in big blind with KTs." This works fine until I have like 20 lines of stuff and it becomes a mess lol. Also, how do you takes notes on postflop play? I write like "1B 3x flop OEFSD, TcJc2d, call raise 2x, BB = 98s" But this seems too cumbersome... Takes to write and worse, TO READ, it just takes me ages to go through all the notes when I have to take a quick decision. Is there a more elegant way to take notes and organise them?

I didn't mention that the tables I play at are never full. Most times I am playing against 3, max 4 opponents! I think this changes the game dynamics a lot. How do I adapt to this? Do I expand my ranges, since there is less potential competitors with good hands? Maybe this is the reason everyone is so aggressive? They just aren't afraid to step on someone's premium hand, since the less players the less likely those hands are?

Thanks for the replies!

Click to expand...

If you want advice that is very specific to NL2, Nathan "BlackRain79" Williams has a bunch of videos on his YouTube channel regarding how to play at those specific stakes which are all about exploitative play, rather than even a vague pretense of GTO play. Those might be more applicable than people making videos about NL25 where they are discussing balancing 4-bet ranges.

As for playing at short-handed tables- well, the ranges are the same for each position as they are at a full ring table where everyone has folded to you. So if you're 4-handed, then you only have your cut-off range, your button range, and the blinds. Which means if you are a 20/18 9 handed, you will be opening something like 25% under the gun 4-handed (which is actually the CO), and well over 30% as an openraise on the BTN. Your stats will run much higher. In the same way, you will be 3-bet much more because villains will look at you, see you're in the CO and must be openraising at least 20%, and think to themselves "Lol, my AJs is way ahead!" so 3-bet you.

Nl2? Lol. If you can not beat it you should be completelly amateur in poker. There are so many fishs who shove any flop with any pair.

DevaCat said:

If you want advice that is very specific to NL2, Nathan "BlackRain79" Williams has a bunch of videos on his YouTube channel regarding how to play at those specific stakes which are all about exploitative play, rather than even a vague pretense of GTO play. Those might be more applicable than people making videos about NL25 where they are discussing balancing 4-bet ranges.

As for playing at short-handed tables- well, the ranges are the same for each position as they are at a full ring table where everyone has folded to you. So if you're 4-handed, then you only have your cut-off range, your button range, and the blinds. Which means if you are a 20/18 9 handed, you will be opening something like 25% under the gun 4-handed (which is actually the CO), and well over 30% as an openraise on the BTN. Your stats will run much higher. In the same way, you will be 3-bet much more because villains will look at you, see you're in the CO and must be openraising at least 20%, and think to themselves "Lol, my AJs is way ahead!" so 3-bet you.

Click to expand...

Yeah good point on the short handed ranges! Perhaps this is why everyone is so "aggressive" lol

I read some stuff from Nathan "BlackRain79", my only concern is that this material seems to be a few years old. Do you reckon it's still applicable?

PokerPT2645 said:

Yeah good point on the short handed ranges! Perhaps this is why everyone is so "aggressive" lol

I read some stuff from Nathan "BlackRain79", my only concern is that this material seems to be a few years old. Do you reckon it's still applicable?

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His YouTube channel still posts now on the basis of a quick check, so presumably the hand histories are up to date. Plus, I don't think NL2 has changed that much in the past two or three years to make stuff from 2017 or 2018 out of date. The only time I play NL2 now is when I get in from a bar after drinking too much to play at my usual stakes, but even in that state it seems to be beatable at well over 10bb/100 in the global player pool. Doesn't feel like it has altered much from when I went through it for actual money.

first of all...big grats on being a winning player...you are doing better than most 4bb/100 is a positive result...well played.

to beat 2nlhe you need patience...and very thick skin.

how many tables are you playing at the same time..??

4bb/100 at 2nlhe is a lifetime in purgatory...1000 hands = 80c profit..??...

if you think you can beat 2nlhe, move up asap. ..you will get a better game...and learn 'poker' a lot quicker.

glgl...and may the farce be with ya

ps...a question for you....how do you play A Rag..??...ie A9-A2 off...with regard to any position apart from cutoff and button..??

if you are operating at 4bb/100, the easiest way to increase this % is to plug some of your leaks....and your % will x3 / x4 very quickly.

You cant conclude anything about your winrate after just 1.000 hands. You need at a bare minimum 10.000 hands and even then its still highly inaccurate. Play around a bit with this free tool to get an understanding of variance, and then ask the same question again, if you are still losing after say 30.000 hands at 2NL. Also what is the rake on that site? At the global 888 poker site rake is outrageously high for 2NL, which obviously makes it tougher to win.

Poker Variance Calculator | Primedope

Yeah the rake at 888 is a bit outrageous (6.25% up to 4$) but it seems to me the competition is softer than on pokerstars (3.5% 0.3$ cap). I play from Portugal, so there is only 888 and PS here.

I will read some theory again and I think I started to identify some leaks I have.

My rate is 44bb/100 not 4. But it's a very small sample anyway.

My losses are mainly due to aggressive betting on all streets while being called by draws or slowplayed by nuts. I have to be tighter I guess.

PokerPT2645 said:

Ok, I just answer my own question, I am bad, but the bloody 2NL seems really tough to beat!

I only played around 1K hands so far, I play for 2h and study for 4-5 hours, so I am in full learning mode, I am not really concerned in making money atm.

I play on 888 Portugal/Spain, so the pool is very limited and I see the same people all the time.

I am showing 44bb/100 but it doesn't represent my gameplay. I am a solid TAG, like 20/18.

My problem is that everyone seems super LAG. My HUD shows me like 35/25 sort stuff for most opponents! And they are all super aggressive. I am constantly getting 3/4bet, the opponents' ranges seem like 70% but surprisingly they also make pretty clever plays, like check raising, trapping, etc.

Wtf can I do against this? Is it the shallow pool of players? Are they really good at 2nl or is my impression?

Any opinions please?

Click to expand...

Is this 6max? If so feel free to add me on discord ( mediashocky#7821 ). I can take a look at your hands history and help you for free

I am also building a discord channel for people that plays 6max at the micro limits where we can learn and help each others.

Gl!!
Matt

PokerPT2645 said:

My losses are mainly due to aggressive betting on all streets while being called by draws or slowplayed by nuts. I have to be tighter I guess.

Click to expand...

Once again you cant conclude anything at all after just 1.000 hands. So just continue to play and see, how it looks, when you have played 10.000 hands, 30.000 hands or 50.000 hands. People can only have the nuts or complete their draws so often, so you have probably just run bad over this incredibly small sample.

But to answer your orignial question, no 2NL is not tough. Everyone at 2NL are beginners, even the regs. If people have spend houndreds of hours studying GTO theory, then they are not playing 2NL. And therefore 2NL have also not changed all that much from 2 or even 20 years ago. You just need to play a simple and mainly value oriented game, and you need patience.

Its also fine to move to 5NL or even 10NL relatively fast, if you can afford to lose a few houndred dollars while learning the game. 5NL and 10NL play somewhat closer to higher limits and is in many ways a better learning environment than 2NL. On 888 Poker the rake also drops from 2NL to 10NL.

2nl is not tough to beat, the same with nl5 and nl10. Just play straight forward, don't overthink. don't ever think about 1000 IQ plays because most of the people don't play poker like that at nl2.

People playing at 2NL tend to be the same sort of people who read up on the game, learn how to "crush microstakes" and are actively trying to play the game seriously - for the most part. There's a fair amount of folks too who just don't have the money to play higher limits but they fancy a few games. To them a few dollars isn't much of a risk. They can have an hour or two of fun for the price of a cup of coffee. I play mostly at 10NL because of recent lifestyle changes and investment strategies, but will move up on occasion to higher limits. I've found some of the softest games at 100NL and 200NL. This is purely anecdotal, but my belief is the same rec who is gonna go sit down at a live 1/2 game, have a few drinks and slowly bleed his stack away will see the different stakes offered online and will assume the limits there to be similar to what they are accustomed to at a casino. I guess what I'm saying is, whales looking to gamble aren't playing microstakes. People looking to learn the game and win are.

PokerPT2645 said:

Ok, I just answer my own question, I am bad, but the bloody 2NL seems really tough to beat!

I only played around 1K hands so far, I play for 2h and study for 4-5 hours, so I am in full learning mode, I am not really concerned in making money atm.

I play on 888 Portugal/Spain, so the pool is very limited and I see the same people all the time.

I am showing 44bb/100 but it doesn't represent my gameplay. I am a solid TAG, like 20/18.

My problem is that everyone seems super LAG. My HUD shows me like 35/25 sort stuff for most opponents! And they are all super aggressive. I am constantly getting 3/4bet, the opponents' ranges seem like 70% but surprisingly they also make pretty clever plays, like check raising, trapping, etc.

Wtf can I do against this? Is it the shallow pool of players? Are they really good at 2nl or is my impression?

Any opinions please?

Click to expand...

I am not sure what the problem is here. You have a 44BB WR for 1k sample. This means you are already doing well, however, 1k sample is really small. So keep doing what you are doing.

If you still feel like you are struggling with these players you should decrease the number of tables you play and start to find leaks in player and exploit them. With small player pool you should be able to do this well.

Another thing you can do is move to tables that has more fish and passive whales. If all those players are really aggressive then start to call them loose.

Came to share my personal experience at 2NL just for a reference.
Up until now, I'm getting profit of 66BB/100 hands played on a 1090 hand sample.
I think I'm doing well for the most part, although I admit I have been in some tough spots, made a few bad calls and still managed to get a suckout, so I agree that 1k hand sample is too small.
I started to learn poker a bit more seriously this year during quarantine, and plan to continue studying to improve my game. I intend to keep playing in 2NL and see if I can continue this winrate over a larger sample, and if I'm doing good and manage to grow my bankroll, I will try to move up stakes.

Wrathchild said:

This is purely anecdotal, but my belief is the same rec who is gonna go sit down at a live 1/2 game, have a few drinks and slowly bleed his stack away will see the different stakes offered online and will assume the limits there to be similar to what they are accustomed to at a casino.

Click to expand...

I have never played that high, but it sounds reasonable, that you can get lucky and run into this kind of player. Particularly during these COVID-19 times, where many physical casinos have been closed.

Wrathchild said:

I guess what I'm saying is, whales looking to gamble aren't playing microstakes. People looking to learn the game and win are.

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This one I have to disagree with. There are plenty of bad players in the microstakes, including some who basically play, like its play money. Not all whales are rich enough to gamble away 200$ at a time, nor do they all have a live poker background. So I think, you are confusing an exception, you experienced a few times, for the rule. The general tendency is, that games get tougher, as you move up.

Eh, fair I suppose, YMMV. Just saying that I've seen much looser games around the 100NL mark, and tighter games from 2NL to 25NL, and not much of a skill gap in between those stakes. A lot of the same regs on places like ACR and Black Chip too, with the occasional splashy, fishy player. On ignition you don't have like a database of data, but over time you might get one or two people in games that have > 40 VPIP, but most seem to be making plays straight out of The Grinder's Manual.

Playing the famous NL2

Good morning everyone, I think you should play on different sites, to come to a conclusion about whether or not you are profitable playing NL2.
Of all the sites that I play, NL2, the only site that I am not profitable is pokerstars, in my opinion the site programming, allows you to have a lot more bad bets than other sites, I know that many players don't like who complains about bad bets, but in my case it's not a complaint, I'm just making a count, about absurd results that are repeated in a much higher frequency than the probability of poker.
This is my chart on NL2, at 888poker.