2NL/4NL Unknowns, donk bets, levelling and hi-jacking.

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Cymro

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This is probably the biggest leak in my game.

It's hard to determine what a villain has from the way he bets unless you have a few hundred hands of history with him. While I have this with some villains and have been exploiting them accordingly, the problem is still how to approach unknowns, because they do weird things that don't make sense, and it's impossible to get a read.

A typical bad situation for me, is leading a pot from LP with a decent hand (KQo+, TT+), getting flatted by one of the blinds, and then they immediately donk 1/2 pot on the flop on a ridiculously dry board, OR, one where I've made top pair with top or second kicker.

This annoys the crap out of me.

I don't like flat calling, because then they will donk the turn and the river and basically control the pot, and you effectively have no idea what they're betting with (it'll be air or a low-middle pair just as often as it is trips or 2-pair).

I also don't like re-raising, because then you can into a betting war and you really have no idea where you're at, because lot of the time aggression is not respected at these stakes.

It leaves me very frustrated and if it happens often enough I will go on tilt.

Another situation I don't like is when I raise from MP, get called, hit my TP on the flop, raise, get called, then check the turn (for pot control). Then someone puts out a pot-sized bet even when the turn is a blank. If it's a bluff, it makes no sense, if it's not a bluff, it still makes no sense (why wouldn't you re-raise the flop?). I have no idea if someone's making a really clever move or a really dumb one. And the worst thing about unknowns in Microstakes is that it's really hard to give people credit for monster hands or even that they know what they're doing.

As a sane player, I rarely want to play a big pot with just top pair, so it really puts me in a difficult spot when people who likely have at best the same hand as me want to keep building it.

Thoughts?
 
ILIKEFISH31

ILIKEFISH31

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I'm still in the learning stages, myself, but the answer to this one has quickly become pretty clear: When dealing with donk fish at the table like this, who have enormous ranges, you simply wait for high value, premium hands and then value bet the life out of villain, or check/call him as he hangs himself.

A leak of mine that I've been cutting out quickly now is to not get into difficult post flop hands with players like this who a) are obviously fish and could literally have ATC in a lot of situations and b) I have no information or reads on. I can't tell you how many times I've lost top two pair to a higher kicker this way. The way to stop it is to simply just wait for big hands, in position, and then let the fish hang themselves. They assuredly will.
 
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Cymro

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I'm still in the learning stages, myself, but the answer to this one has quickly become pretty clear: When dealing with donk fish at the table like this, who have enormous ranges, you simply wait for high value, premium hands and then value bet the life out of villain, or check/call him as he hangs himself.

A leak of mine that I've been cutting out quickly now is to not get into difficult post flop hands with players like this who a) are obviously fish and could literally have ATC in a lot of situations and b) I have no information or reads on. I can't tell you how many times I've lost top two pair to a higher kicker this way. The way to stop it is to simply just wait for big hands, in position, and then let the fish hang themselves. They assuredly will.

The thing that bothers me is that I don't see how donk betting the flop makes any sense in any situation other than in a limped pot with a lot of callers. You're only scaring away customers if you have a big hand and you could be getting yourself into trouble if you're not that strong. From the first kitchen table games I played, I knew that whether or not I had a hand, it usually made a lot more sense to check the flop OOP, unless in certain cases if I'd been the aggressor pre-flop. I never really knew position theory back then, but I at least knew that much.
 
ILIKEFISH31

ILIKEFISH31

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The thing that bothers me is that I don't see how donk betting the flop makes any sense in any situation other than in a limped pot with a lot of callers. You're only scaring away customers if you have a big hand and you could be getting yourself into trouble if you're not that strong. From the first kitchen table games I played, I knew that whether or not I had a hand, it usually made a lot more sense to check the flop OOP, unless in certain cases if I'd been the aggressor pre-flop. I never really knew position theory back then, but I at least knew that much.

I would say that I cbet heads up pots a good 85% of the time. Multiway pots are a totally different beast and OOP multiways are yet another. If I have a calling station or two behind me and I hit big on the flop, sometimes I'll donk bet 3/4 or the pot and let them hang themselves by trying to 3bet it. Other times, if the pot's small, it's simply my way of trying to take down the pot uncontested, although I tend to do this more on the turn with small pots and it usually works.

When dealing with fish at the micros so far, though...especially with limited reads, the best course of action generally seems to give them credit for what they represent. Although it's quite likely that this fish is simply doing this with top pair or less, he might have also just hit a set or flopped the nuts and is betting like this to project weakness so he can trap you or simply come right back over the top when you do bet.

Remember...a lot of these fish are unaware of positional theory entirely and are literally at level 1. That's why you have to consider the possibility that his donk bet is the result of true strength as he doesn't know about extracting value or pushing people off of the hands that will pay him off anyway. He likes his cards and the flop - he bets. It's as simple as that. He probably doesn't even know what the term donk bet means, you know?
 
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Cymro

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That's why you have to consider the possibility that his donk bet is the result of true strength as he doesn't know about extracting value or pushing people off of the hands that will pay him off anyway. He likes his cards and the flop - he bets. It's as simple as that. He probably doesn't even know what the term donk bet means, you know?

I know exactly what you mean. But that's the thing that drives me crazy, I'm always wondering if I'm being outplayed or if this person's just retarded. More than once, I've had this happen to me a few times in a short period of time, and I've just called them down or gone on tilt and shoved. It's about 50/50 they fold or they show up with the nuts. Obviously a bad play on my part, but it just reinforces my reason for hating this situation, you're either good or you're not, and sometimes you're biting someone's bait, other times you're just feeding the fish. Drives me nuts.

If you want to get a really good example of this, try playing 5NL PLO. The amount of showdowns you get to where the guy bets every street with just a pocket pair are unreal.
 
ILIKEFISH31

ILIKEFISH31

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I know exactly what you mean. But that's the thing that drives me crazy, I'm always wondering if I'm being outplayed or if this person's just retarded. More than once, I've had this happen to me a few times in a short period of time, and I've just called them down or gone on tilt and shoved. It's about 50/50 they fold or they show up with the nuts. Obviously a bad play on my part, but it just reinforces my reason for hating this situation, you're either good or you're not, and sometimes you're biting someone's bait, other times you're just feeding the fish. Drives me nuts.

If you want to get a really good example of this, try playing 5NL PLO. The amount of showdowns you get to where the guy bets every street with just a pocket pair are unreal.

I just saw a video on DC last week that encourages picking up a side game to play while you're working on building your roll. I almost exclusively am playing 6max cash games here to start but I'm contemplating playing some MTT's now and then. My side game right now is HUSNG's although I'm really, really interested in PLO. Just as a break to study now and then I spend a few minutes reading/watching some PLO hands and gaining some knowledge.

As for your situation at hand here: Trust me...as this is something I'm just grasping strongly within the past week or so...my initial advice will really set you free of this. When you're playing hands that are so far ahead of villain's range, and you know he's a fish, these decisions become abundantly easier to play. Throw in the fact that you want to be isolating these fish when you're in position and between your equity in the hand and your position, you almost always have a huge advantage in the hand. Now, he's just going to be betting big into you when you're holding more equity. A good line in this case is a simple call and then a pot sized bet on the turn which, shockingly often, villain will call with as low as top pair or even air. At 2nl and 4nl, we're totally set up to shove the river here if we're still ahead or get any additional help and over time this kind of play will become extremely profitable for us.

Stay in position, keep your ranges tight, and wait for the right spot. These idiots are playing 60% of their hands so...you won't have to wait very long in all reality. You will be astonished at how often these guys will call your shove or value bet on the turn and river when you're holding the absolute nuts.
 
Shumkoolie

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A typical bad situation for me, is leading a pot from LP with a decent hand (KQo+, TT+), getting flatted by one of the blinds, and then they immediately donk 1/2 pot on the flop on a ridiculously dry board, OR, one where I've made top pair with top or second kicker.

This annoys the crap out of me.

I don't like flat calling, because then they will donk the turn and the river and basically control the pot, and you effectively have no idea what they're betting with (it'll be air or a low-middle pair just as often as it is trips or 2-pair).

I also don't like re-raising, because then you can into a betting war and you really have no idea where you're at, because lot of the time aggression is not respected at these stakes.

I think you said a lot right there where you said you don't like flat calling or raising. That may be a possible leak there too. You've put yourself in a tough spot, which is every poker player's leak. The key to me here is you want to be the one applying pressure to your opponent. Make them make the tough decision.

Let's use your example where you have TT on a dry board. They're leading out to establish control. Now, if you didn't flop a set, you pretty much have to decide either to raise or fold on a "dry" board as you have called it.

Some players just like to play a higher variance game where you seem to be a solid player that plays effectively enough that variance is not too bad. Sometimes you just have to take smaller edges. Raising here is probably warranted some of the time.

That said though, a hand like KQ is very tricky and a higher variance hand. Even if you flop top pair, you're behind some of the time. I exploited that against somebody who played KT on a xTTxx board, the other three cards were unders, no straight or flush possibilities and I had AT and won a nice sized pot.

That could be you on a xQQxx or xKKxx board. Tread carefully with hands like that.
 
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Cymro

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My side game right now is HUSNG's although I'm really, really interested in PLO.

I haven't played a huge amount, but my initial impression is that it has a higher variance than NLHE, but I think low stakes PLO could be a lot more profitable than NLHE. There are so many players who seem to be just familiar with NLHE, and think that PLO is the same except for 4 hole cards that you see some colossal mistakes. The most common mistake is people thinking they can use any combo of their 4 hole cards with the board to make a hand, plus they don't understand the vastly increased likelihood that other players have made a straight or a flush. It's easy pickings EXCEPT that the PL format means it's cheaper for people to call and draw out on you.
 
tothbopo

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I have the same problem in these micros. Some donks just bet it up and up they even call a high reraise with nothing on the hand. But also sometimes I must fold because it is to crazy.
 
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That could be you on a xQQxx or xKKxx board. Tread carefully with hands like that.

I usually try not to go crazy with these anyway. It's so easy to be running into a full house here, especially if there's another broadway on the board (If I have KQ on a board of JQQ, or TQQ, I'm definitely scared of QT or QJ), that I will just treat it like top pair most of the time and take the pot control line.
 
tothbopo

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Actually I have juat had a kind of tilt kk v aa qq v straight flush A high v full house aa v jj floating a boat
 
tothbopo

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How do I keep head up after that?
 
ILIKEFISH31

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How do I keep head up after that?

If you misplayed the hands (which we don't know since you haven't posted them. Telling us that your QQ got beat by a straight doesn't really show us what happened in the hand) then you keep your head up by reviewing the plays you made and finding out exactly where you went wrong. You study, review, and analyze until you feel confident that you won't make that same mistake again.

If they weren't misplayed and instead were just bad beats and/or coolers, you keep your head up by learning something about variance, swings, and the long run of large sample sizes.

As someone else told me: You're not entitled to anything here. You can be an 87% favorite on a preflop shove coin flip and yet villain is still entitled to that 13%.
 
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Cymro

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If you misplayed the hands (which we don't know since you haven't posted them. Telling us that your QQ got beat by a straight doesn't really show us what happened in the hand) then you keep your head up by reviewing the plays you made and finding out exactly where you went wrong. You study, review, and analyze until you feel confident that you won't make that same mistake again.

If they weren't misplayed and instead were just bad beats and/or coolers, you keep your head up by learning something about variance, swings, and the long run of large sample sizes.

As someone else told me: You're not entitled to anything here. You can be an 87% favorite on a preflop shove coin flip and yet villain is still entitled to that 13%.

I've been so unlucky with my big pockets lately. When I finally won a decent sized pot with KK yesterday, I was tempted to throw a party. I couldn't believe it, I got called by AK, he called all 3 barrels and didn't hit anything. Beautiful.
 
ILIKEFISH31

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I've been so unlucky with my big pockets lately. When I finally won a decent sized pot with KK yesterday, I was tempted to throw a party. I couldn't believe it, I got called by AK, he called all 3 barrels and didn't hit anything. Beautiful.

In the micros here, that happens all the time. Guys get dealt two pretty looking cards in the pocket and they just don't want to fold them throughout the hand. Flop, turn, and river they're calling...regardless of what does or doesn't come down on the board.

Again, in situations like this, just value bet them to death as you did. In the reverse scenario, where you get dealt a strong hand, don't be like them. When it's obvious you're beat, fold.
 
tothbopo

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I think they must be called bad beats especially the one with flush A high, as the other ones zoom 1/2 cent 1 $ buyin. K9s on hand flop A J 10 flush completed pot 15 cent he goes all in i call he got A Q (Q same color) turn Q and dadada river Q he got a boat I am out.
 
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