2bb Open Raise

I'm seeing a large amount of olayers at micros nowadays using 2.5x and even 2x open raise sizes.

I just talked to someone who's done a lot of solver work and they told me anything higher than a 2bb open raise is losing EV. This was solved assuming 5% rake. Of course this probably applied to nosebleed stakes more than anything.

What are your thoughts on this?

Is there any point in using smaller raise sizes (alomg with a wider open range) at micros?

Hi. This sounds interesting. Have you got a reference to the work that has been done on this? Would be nice to get a link and read the study. R

Ragequit said:

Hi. This sounds interesting. Have you got a reference to the work that has been done on this? Would be nice to get a link and read the study. R

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Not a study per se, but here it is. It's the guy who made Zenith poker, I asked him if he's got 3bb open raise ranges on his website and he said it's -EV compared to minraise.

http://www.zenithpoker.com/ (go to preflop, you'll need to make an account)



I asked on the Run it Once forums and was told these ranges are quite solid and are very similar to what Monkersolver puts out. Would still be nice to hear some opinions to back this up though.

It's great something like this is free.

ventrolloquist said:

I'm seeing a large amount of olayers at micros nowadays using 2.5x and even 2x open raise sizes.

I just talked to someone who's done a lot of solver work and they told me anything higher than a 2bb open raise is losing EV. This was solved assuming 5% rake. Of course this probably applied to nosebleed stakes more than anything.

What are your thoughts on this?

Is there any point in using smaller raise sizes (alomg with a wider open range) at micros?

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I think you can optimally adjust open range to different raise size from 2x to 3x, and the EV should be very close.

Problem is that when you raise 2x (which should have a wider range than 3x), you can get called more often and play multiway pot with marginal hands and and face more tough decisions to maximize the EV.

quant1986 said:

I think you can optimally adjust open range to different raise size from 2x to 3x, and the EV should be very close.

Problem is that when you raise 2x (which should have a wider range than 3x), you can get called more often and play multiway pot with marginal hands and and face more tough decisions to maximize the EV.

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Are they suggesting that pokers new standard open should be 2bb now? I think if that happens we would see 4-5 players going to each flop. Drastically reducing the winning odds of each hand.


Also, are the solver results talking about Early Position opens in isolation? Or 2bb opens from anywhere? Surely CO and BTN EVs should be higher.

Ragequit said:

Are they suggesting that pokers new standard open should be 2bb now? I think if that happens we would see 4-5 players going to each flop. Drastically reducing the winning odds of each hand.


Also, are the solver results talking about Early Position opens in isolation? Or 2bb opens from anywhere? Surely CO and BTN EVs should be higher.

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I agree this is 100% true at micros. However in my opinion the reason it works is because if you do get a multiway pot like that, now the blinds can squeeze wide (because the open ranges are wide) as an exploit which will just discourage overcalling . If you look at PokerSnowie's strategy as an example it seems very tight with calling for precisely this reason, because it squeezes quite liberally from BB.

The only surprise to me is the reduced fold equity of a 2bb open despite there being rake, you'd think a bigger size would make more sense with rake. It's as if all the players have a mutual agreement to play nice with each other and that happens to be their GTO solution lol.

The results are 2bb for all the positions (but I think I've only looked at 6max positions, perhaps very EP is a different size)

ventrolloquist said:

I'm seeing a large amount of olayers at micros nowadays using 2.5x and even 2x open raise sizes.

I just talked to someone who's done a lot of solver work and they told me anything higher than a 2bb open raise is losing EV. This was solved assuming 5% rake. Of course this probably applied to nosebleed stakes more than anything.

What are your thoughts on this?

Is there any point in using smaller raise sizes (alomg with a wider open range) at micros?

Click to expand...

Couple of thoughts....

The math should be the same at micros or nosebleeds. But in micro stakes you get more fishy calls.

It's the 5% rake that is hard to beat. It kills me everytime I'm chopping with my opponent.

To me a min raise in NL or PL is problematic in micro stakes because you will get completely speculative callers who just think 2 BB is cheap. One player calls and then the next player thinks he's price in lol. You might as well be playing a Limit game because you haven't raised more.

When playing cash micros I raise 2.5x when opening. I want action for my good hands - but I also want to thin the field a little bit.

Good luck !

Let me just say, at micro stakes, you can easily open 2.5x for your marginal hands that you don't want to call a 3bet with and open 3/4x with your hands that you'd call a 3bet with it. It's SUPER exploitable, but I've been doing it at micro stakes for ages.

Fish will always be fish, and they don't pay attention to open sizes. Regs will catch on soon enough, especially if it's not at Zoom tables, but I would argue that you shouldn't be targetting regs for your large win rates anyway. And, if there aren't enough fish at the table then you need to work on your table selection better.

Will just add, I don't always do this every time. I vary it up per session just in case someone is being super observant.

TheGenera1 said:

Let me just say, at micro stakes, you can easily open 2.5x for your marginal hands that you don't want to call a 3bet with and open 3/4x with your hands that you'd call a 3bet with it. It's SUPER exploitable, but I've been doing it at micro stakes for ages.

Fish will always be fish, and they don't pay attention to open sizes. Regs will catch on soon enough, especially if it's not at Zoom tables, but I would argue that you shouldn't be targetting regs for your large win rates anyway. And, if there aren't enough fish at the table then you need to work on your table selection better.

Will just add, I don't always do this every time. I vary it up per session just in case someone is being super observant.

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Interesting, thanks for the post

the openings depend on the size of the stack and the position at the table, with the position open I open x2 x2.5, from the position of the steel to x3.

ventrolloquist said:

I'm seeing a large amount of olayers at micros nowadays using 2.5x and even 2x open raise sizes.

I just talked to someone who's done a lot of solver work and they told me anything higher than a 2bb open raise is losing EV. This was solved assuming 5% rake. Of course this probably applied to nosebleed stakes more than anything.

What are your thoughts on this?

Is there any point in using smaller raise sizes (alomg with a wider open range) at micros?

Click to expand...

I do believe this is a matter of the game you are in, if you’re in an extremely fishy game then raising 5xbb In most positions (if you will get called by fish) with a tight range is going to prove profitable. Let’s say you sit at a table where everyone is extremely tight then this strategy is not going to work at all the same because you’re AA aren’t going to get called nearly as much so you have to open you’re range up, reduce bet sizing to induce calls and have a stronger post flop play. That is my view upon this, I’d love for somebody to highlight any flaws within the strategy I propose.

All in all my answer to this question would be, it completely depends on the type of game you are in and finding the most +ev plays

GL at the tables

It is very tempting to look for "one size fits all", but what works on one table does not necessarily work on another, let alone on another stakes level. Play should be adjusted based on the mistakes opponents make

This has always intrigued me. In micros, some estrucutures for me is impracticable, because you supply for your opponent a chance to pay with a bad cards and has a great flop.

Marcelobp said:

This has always intrigued me. In micros, some estrucutures for me is impracticable, because you supply for your opponent a chance to pay with a bad cards and has a great flop.

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Well, this is exactly what you want, being called by weaker ranges. The problem is when too many players enter the pot and it becomes hard to realise your hand's equity.

Interesting to know. I'm currently doing 2.5x, but almost everyone on NL2 does 3x. It is complicated to do 2x because if I have an medium hand, they will give me 3bet with anything, and if I have a strong hand AA, KK, QQ, I can even take a 3bet pre-flop, but if I 4bet, they fold.

So, I'm thinking of opening 3x with just AA KK QQ ..

TheGenera1 said:

Let me just say, at micro stakes, you can easily open 2.5x for your marginal hands that you don't want to call a 3bet with and open 3/4x with your hands that you'd call a 3bet with it. It's SUPER exploitable, but I've been doing it at micro stakes for ages.

Fish will always be fish, and they don't pay attention to open sizes. Regs will catch on soon enough, especially if it's not at Zoom tables, but I would argue that you shouldn't be targetting regs for your large win rates anyway. And, if there aren't enough fish at the table then you need to work on your table selection better.

Will just add, I don't always do this every time. I vary it up per session just in case someone is being super observant.

Click to expand...

I liked the idea and really think it works, I will try to put it into practice on pokerstars ZOOM NL2

Michel_11 said:

Interesting to know. I'm currently doing 2.5x, but almost everyone on NL2 does 3x. It is complicated to do 2x because if I have an medium hand, they will give me 3bet with anything, and if I have a strong hand AA, KK, QQ, I can even take a 3bet pre-flop, but if I 4bet, they fold.

So, I'm thinking of opening 3x with just AA KK QQ ..

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If they fold too much to 4bet, then you can widen your 4bet range and add some bluffs to it (but use blockers, not just any two) Playing zoom requires a different mindset, strategy and positional awareness. Opening your top hands 3x, 4x makes your opponents play better, e.g. fold their weaker hands. You would find that a lot of players call 2.2-2.5x with weak hands and fold them to a flop cbet, or even more profitably, they pay a small flop cbet and fold the turn.