2\5 nl live AK two pair..

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lukyl

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Playing 2\5 at the casino table is full 10 people villian is a tag player.
I'm at around $900 stack, villain around $800
I'm dealt AKh in mp raise to 20 get 5 callers including villain in HJ.
flop comes Ac, Kc, 8h
pots ~100
1 check to me, i bet 75, folds around to villain, he calls. Heads up.
turn comes 7s
pot ~ 250
i bet 115
villain 3 bets to 240
i call.
river comes 3h
pots ~730
i check after little tank
villain bets 340 after longgg tank.
me ???
 
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sryImPro

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well, river is not club right, so that would decide for me to call another 340$...But to be honest, i'v never played with that amount of cash so it's always easier to say :/
 
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HooDooKoo

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Playing 2\5 at the casino table is full 10 people villian is a tag player.
I'm at around $900 stack, villain around $800
I'm dealt AKh in mp raise to 20 get 5 callers including villain in HJ.
flop comes Ac, Kc, 8h
pots ~100
1 check to me, i bet 75, folds around to villain, he calls. Heads up.
turn comes 7s
pot ~ 250
i bet 115
villain 3 bets to 240
i call.
river comes 3h
pots ~730
i check after little tank
villain bets 340 after longgg tank.
me ???

First off, what hands are we afraid of on the turn? As far as I can see, 77 (which we can discount a ton based on the size of your flop bet and villain's flop call) and 88. There are plenty of hands out that you crush that will raise you in this spot: lesser two pairs and various pairs with flush draws. I re-raise here all day because if we're using ranges to make our decision then I have his range crushed. If he has a set of eights, so be it.

Your game needs significant work, though, if you got tripped up in the spot. CALLING this turn is the worst thing you can possibly do UNLESS you've already decided to call a river bet regardless of it's size. You can safely assume that villain, in position, is going to make a BIG river bet. As a result, calling the turn just to fold to a big river bet is TERRIBLE play. You either re-raise the turn and take the initiative, or fold the turn. Calling puts you in the worst possible spot --- especially if the river is a club.

One of the differences between good/great players and the rest of the poker universe is that the good/great players have a plan. They aren't evaluating their play on every street --- they ALREADY have a plan for future streets before the cards are dealt. That doesn't mean that they ALWAYS follow-through with that plan, as I'd fold this river to certain types of players if a club hit the board --- but having a plan is crucial so that you avoid the situation you put yourself in above.

In summary, I raise the turn. As played, you have to call the river.

-HooDooKoo
 
Jillychemung

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In summary, I raise the turn. As played, you have to call the river.

+1 Covered it all here.

You only have to decide on the turn raise, based on your reads of the player, how much of his raising range here includes other 2P+draws along with the 88 (agree completely that we can rule out 77/AA/KK). If you can include any combos along with the 3 88 ones then a re-raise is needed.
 
TheBigFinn

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I agree with HooDooKoo. Absolute must call. I also kind it odd you got 5 callers preflop. I think this is telling you the opening bet needs to $30 or maybe even $40. What is the typical opening bet?
 
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lukyl

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First off, what hands are we afraid of on the turn? As far as I can see, 77 (which we can discount a ton based on the size of your flop bet and villain's flop call) and 88. There are plenty of hands out that you crush that will raise you in this spot: lesser two pairs and various pairs with flush draws. I re-raise here all day because if we're using ranges to make our decision then I have his range crushed. If he has a set of eights, so be it.

Your game needs significant work, though, if you got tripped up in the spot. CALLING this turn is the worst thing you can possibly do UNLESS you've already decided to call a river bet regardless of it's size. You can safely assume that villain, in position, is going to make a BIG river bet. As a result, calling the turn just to fold to a big river bet is TERRIBLE play. You either re-raise the turn and take the initiative, or fold the turn. Calling puts you in the worst possible spot --- especially if the river is a club.

One of the differences between good/great players and the rest of the poker universe is that the good/great players have a plan. They aren't evaluating their play on every street --- they ALREADY have a plan for future streets before the cards are dealt. That doesn't mean that they ALWAYS follow-through with that plan, as I'd fold this river to certain types of players if a club hit the board --- but having a plan is crucial so that you avoid the situation you put yourself in above.

In summary, I raise the turn. As played, you have to call the river.

-HooDooKoo
cheers for the detailed review.

the way i played the turn at the time, for some unknown reason, i did not factor in a 4bet my plan which i did whole heartedly have (allbeit possibly the wrong one?) was to call his raise then check call basically any river card.

reason for this was that he had never three bet in the hours i sat with him, leading me to think he was holding either a bluff or set of 8s, but i then figured a set of 8s to be so unlikely due to only flatting the flop bet on such a draw heavy flop, therefore i had at the point of his 3bet secured him on a bluff or at best worse 2p. hence calling to be able to check and get full value when he shoves the river.

upon river card i was surprised he left some behind ~180 which led me to feel suspicious but still jam to get max from worse 2p.
he then proceeded to turn over 88, something i had completely ruled out..

having now disclosed this information i am curious if i was completely off mark in my play ? Or are there redeeming qualities present?

thanks. (sorry bad grammar writing on phone)
 
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HooDooKoo

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cheers for the detailed review.

the way i played the turn at the time, for some unknown reason, i did not factor in a 4bet my plan which i did whole heartedly have (allbeit possibly the wrong one?) was to call his raise then check call basically any river card.

reason for this was that he had never three bet in the hours i sat with him, leading me to think he was holding either a bluff or set of 8s, but i then figured a set of 8s to be so unlikely due to only flatting the flop bet on such a draw heavy flop, therefore i had at the point of his 3bet secured him on a bluff or at best worse 2p. hence calling to be able to check and get full value when he shoves the river.

upon river card i was surprised he left some behind ~180 which led me to feel suspicious but still jam to get max from worse 2p.
he then proceeded to turn over 88, something i had completely ruled out..

having now disclosed this information i am curious if i was completely off mark in my play ? Or are there redeeming qualities present?

thanks. (sorry bad grammar writing on phone)

I think that you played the hand poorly, but I don't see how you're supposed to get away from it. It's just bad luck for you.

Shoving the river was a terrible play. If you're going to put all the chips in the middle, do it on the turn so that you generate fold equity. When he has the one hand you're afraid of, well, there's not much you can do about that.

The point of my prior post is that you need to have a plan. You may have had one, but either it was a bad plan or you executed it poorly because it certainly didn't look like you had one.

Better luck next time.

-HooDooKoo
 
deluns28

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Some advantages of live game table are image and tells. If the guy is a rock, it's around 80% that he is holding a set here. I would'nt mind shoving the turn playing multiple tables online but in live game, I would consider folding here and take a cigar break :p.

HooDooKoo's analysis and advice is the nuts here.
 
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CactusCat

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I think you played this perfectly until the river.

That is a hard hand to get away from, considering literally nothing but 88 makes sense. I think it's just bad luck that the one hand he turned out to have was one of only 5 combos of sets he reasonably could have had.

But that doesn't excuse the river shove. Isn't the only two pair hand he could likely have A8, or K8? 87 is folding the flop especially since he's in the Hijack and with players to act behind. Is he one to overplay bottom two pair/ top and bottom? Same with AQ, another hand that would shut down on the river.

You beat 3 out of 4 likely hands which, once called when they 3-bet the turn, are happy to check behind on the river with the pot already that big. Let's give him busted flush draws and expand 4 to, say, 10 hands.

A turn shove would've been fine too. He could have a flush draw hoping to get callers from behind to give him the odds, but is he 3-bet semibluffing the turn with it? Most players are going to give you credit for having a real hand on an AKx board and either fold since they're not getting the odds since everyone else folded since it's heads up or just call hoping to hit their hand, and don't want to get shoved on.

The Ace and King of clubs are both already on the flop - is he ever doing this with a naked Queen high flush draw, especially when he must think you've got at least TPTK and you raised preflop? You said you never saw him 3-bet that whole session - that doesn't seem consistent with the theory he has a flush draw or some kind of combo hand. I'm probably discounting this from his range.

Regarding your discounting of the set of 8s, I don't agree with your reasoning. It's a drawy board yes, but it's the flop, you're in middle position, so from the Hijack, the villain is in actually relatively early position if it checked through the SB and BB. Think of the times you have a set in early position - you sometimes have to risk letting flush draws get there on the turn in order to build a pot.

It would have a well-played hand if you said something like "I checked the river to induce river bluffs from busted flush draws/combo hands like Q7c", but check-raising all in against those hands is pointless anyway.
 
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A2345Razz

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I don't get how you can even consider folding this river....you guys are acting like people dont go brain dead here with a lower 2 pair (suited aces) after a softish turn bet that was less than half the pot.


I call...it isn't even close unless the "TAG" is a TOTAL rock...and even then its a very hard muck.
 
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I'm always calling as well. But I agree with HooDooKoo that *shoving* over villain's committing river bet on the river is the wrong play. I think even weak two pairs is checking behind once the 3-bet on the turn is called.
 
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lukyl

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I'm always calling as well. But I agree with HooDooKoo that *shoving* over villain's committing river bet on the river is the wrong play. I think even weak two pairs is checking behind once the 3-bet on the turn is called.
good to hear =) my actual play was a call on the river not shove, was just curious to see what kinda thoughts people would have had if i had shoved there since at the time was one of my considered plays, when considering he could have turned a worse two pair into a desperate bluff and been forced to call.
 
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My mistake, I misread that you shoved. I think you did well to limit the loss in that hand. You were unlucky on the flop (obviously) but also unlucky on the river in that were no action-killer river cards that might've come, specifically another 8 where the only lesser two pairs boat up or a third club.

I'd still say for future reads that just a flat call on the flop with a flopped set, then turn raise, is a very common/standard line with sets since he's second to act after the blinds check to you and you bet. Yeah there's the two-to-a-flush, but I wouldn't necessarily call it a very wet board. The only straight draws are only poor gutshots and in general players are less likely to call with JQ/JT offsuit even with the price they're getting. He deduces that you're much likelier to have a made hand than a draw yourself so doesn't have to worry about you drawing. Flush draws and combo hands may try to take it away from you on the turn, but when you keep firing instead of slowing down, it's less likely.

Shift the positions around, with you UTG instead of MP and him on the button or cutoff and with callers between, then he would probably not slowplay, he'd raise and try and get it in right on the flop.

If he raises you right there, it would look inordinately strong, and risks a fold from TPTK hands. In this case, your hand was obviously strong enough to continue, but he couldn't have known that yet.
 
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HooDooKoo

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My mistake, I misread that you shoved. I think you did well to limit the loss in that hand. You were unlucky on the flop (obviously) but also unlucky on the river in that were no action-killer river cards that might've come, specifically another 8 where the only lesser two pairs boat up or a third club.

You didn't misread that OP shoved the river. His/her original post about the hand result said that's what he/she did. Apparently he/she didn't actually do that --- he/she just wanted feedback on the river shove.

-HooDooKoo
 
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