10NL FR Spot

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gsxr5221

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10NL FR game

SB 11.05
BB 2.37 43/18
UTG 11.19
UTG+1 12.92
Hero 8.61
Middle 14.04
ML 9.11
CO 13.90
Button 10.27 18/10

Hero is dealt AQo folded to and open raised for 3x. Button and BB call
Qs 4d 10s. (.95)

BB leads out for .95 with 1.12 left.

Now would you Flat call here in position or re raise to isolate the BB and get the button out of the hand..(we can assume that the BB is committed to the pot at this time and is most likely shipping any turn card that hits if you flat here)
 
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WVHillbilly

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Why did you start the hand with less than $10???

Do you know anything about the BTN?
 
absoluthamm

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gsxr5221 said:
10NL FR game

SB 11.05
BB 2.37 43/18
UTG 11.19
UTG+1 12.92
Hero 8.61
Middle 14.04
ML 9.11
CO 13.90
Button 10.27 18/10

Hero is dealt AQo folded to and open raised for 3x. Button and BB call
Qs 4d 10s. (.95)

BB leads out for .95 with 1.12 left.

Now would you Flat call here in position or re raise to isolate the BB and get the button out of the hand..(we can assume that the BB is committed to the pot at this time and is most likely shipping any turn card that hits if you flat here)
Click to expand...

Aside from the obvious why did you not buy in full...

Isolate the BB Fish. What can the Button likely have here that would have you beat? QQ+, which would have most certainly raised preflop, TT and 44 are possible for the flat call, but that's very narrow. QT/Q4 would have you beat now, but with an 18/10, he's not calling with those hands. That leaves the draws. 18/10 will unlikely call with a non OE straight draw, so that leaves KJ and J9(and I don't see J9 calling pre). For the flushes...I think he would only be flatting with broadway suited hands pre, so we're looking at ATs+, KJs+, QJs.

With the range of 18% for VPIP with the JJ+, AKs removed for obvious reasons, you are about a 75% favorite against that 18% range(also keep in mind that the 18% is made up of a lot of limps, not necessarily calls of raises). Even with the narrowed down range of TT,44,AQs-ATs,KJs+,QJs,ATo+,KJo+,QJo you are ahead 68% of the time.
 
bgomez89

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idk i think I want some more reads on the btn but flatting could be good. BTN could call with obv worse Qs and FDs that probably wouldn't call our raise
 
acky100

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I think flatting too, doesn't bother me in the BB's money doesnt go in now because i'll put him in on any cards that hit the turn
 
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absoluthamm said:
Aside from the obvious why did you not buy in full...
I was on a different computer from what I normally play on, so the autofill/auto-rebuy I guess wasn't selected and I just lost a hand like (2 hands prior to this one) and while setting up HUD on a netbook..So it was me being irresponsible there

Isolate the BB Fish. What can the Button likely have here that would have you beat? QQ+, which would have most certainly raised preflop, TT and 44 are possible for the flat call, but that's very narrow. QT/Q4 would have you beat now, but with an 18/10, he's not calling with those hands. That leaves the draws. 18/10 will unlikely call with a non OE straight draw, so that leaves KJ and J9(and I don't see J9 calling pre). For the flushes...I think he would only be flatting with broadway suited hands pre, so we're looking at ATs+, KJs+, QJs.

With the range of 18% for VPIP with the JJ+, AKs removed for obvious reasons, you are about a 75% favorite against that 18% range(also keep in mind that the 18% is made up of a lot of limps, not necessarily calls of raises). Even with the narrowed down range of TT,44,AQs-ATs,KJs+,QJs,ATo+,KJo+,QJo you are ahead 68% of the time.
Click to expand...

I deff agree with what you are saying here...In the instance the BTN does have something here, Are you raise folding here to a btn re-raise after you raise to isolate? or are you raising to isolate and then calling oop to a re-raise from btn?

acky100 said:
I think flatting too, doesn't bother me in the BB's money doesnt go in now because i'll put him in on any cards that hit the turn
Click to expand...
I agree you with on the fact that regardless of what the turn card is I believe the BB is open shoving. So ideally your not really callin his initial bet of .95 but instead his stack of the 2.02
 
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Given there is not a ton of money left, either raise or call is fine. Call seems to make the most sense over all.
 
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Thanks everyone for input...I ended up raising here, button folded and BB ended up getting it in on this flop with Q8diamonds...turn 4 and river 6 for me to win the pot.

Here's a new one from tonight.
SB 15.07
BB 5.06
UTG 8.75
UTG+1 10.00
Middle 10.00
ML 10.12 10/8 w/ 100% Flop Cbet over 127hands
Hero 11.68 Adiamonds Jdiamonds
CO 2.20
BTN 11.84

ML opens for 3x, Hero calls in position, folded around. (.75) Board 6s 4c 4d. ML leads out for .50

Are you floating here, raising, or folding and why? Given his range I am pretty certain that he didn't hit this board at all.
 
fletchdad

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gsxr5221 said:
Thanks everyone for input...I ended up raising here, button folded and BB ended up getting it in on this flop with Q8diamonds...turn 4 and river 6 for me to win the pot.

Here's a new one from tonight.
SB 15.07
BB 5.06
UTG 8.75
UTG+1 10.00
Middle 10.00
ML 10.12 10/8 w/ 100% Flop Cbet over 127hands
Hero 11.68 Adiamonds Jdiamonds
CO 2.20
BTN 11.84

ML opens for 3x, Hero calls in position, folded around. (.75) Board 6s 4c 4d. ML leads out for .50

Are you floating here, raising, or folding and why? Given his range I am pretty certain that he didn't hit this board at all.
Click to expand...

Reads are gonna be important here. How he sees you as well. 100% flop c bet, I could see a reason to raise him here, but I am 3 betting pre a lot. 3 bet pre gives you a better stance if it makes the flop. If he 4 bets as 10/8 an easy fold IMO.

But since he leads with c bet 100% you could float, altho I think I like raisin g better than floating,. BUT he is only playing 8% and from MP probably not that wide. So you are probably gonna be flipping at best. Since you didnt hit at all, you are probably behind here, so I could find a fold w/o too much problem.
 
shinedown.45

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gsxr5221 said:
Thanks everyone for input...I ended up raising here, button folded and BB ended up getting it in on this flop with Q8diamonds...turn 4 and river 6 for me to win the pot.

Here's a new one from tonight.
SB 15.07
BB 5.06
UTG 8.75
UTG+1 10.00
Middle 10.00
ML 10.12 10/8 w/ 100% Flop Cbet over 127hands
Hero 11.68 Adiamonds Jdiamonds
CO 2.20
BTN 11.84

ML opens for 3x, Hero calls in position, folded around. (.75) Board 6s 4c 4d. ML leads out for .50

Are you floating here, raising, or folding and why? Given his range I am pretty certain that he didn't hit this board at all.
Click to expand...
I'm raising here as he may just be c-betting with air.
I'm also raising here to rep an overpair.
 
WVHillbilly

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gsxr5221 said:
Thanks everyone for input...I ended up raising here, button folded and BB ended up getting it in on this flop with Q8diamonds...turn 4 and river 6 for me to win the pot.

Here's a new one from tonight.
SB 15.07
BB 5.06
UTG 8.75
UTG+1 10.00
Middle 10.00
ML 10.12 10/8 w/ 100% Flop Cbet over 127hands
Hero 11.68 Adiamonds Jdiamonds
CO 2.20
BTN 11.84

ML opens for 3x, Hero calls in position, folded around. (.75) Board 6s 4c 4d. ML leads out for .50

Are you floating here, raising, or folding and why? Given his range I am pretty certain that he didn't hit this board at all.
Click to expand...

What's his turn cbet? If it's low you can float and then take the pot when he checks the turn. If it's high just fold now. And really you should probably just be folding preflop. AJs doesn't do well against his opening range.
 
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fletchdad said:
Reads are gonna be important here. How he sees you as well. 100% flop c bet, I could see a reason to raise him here, but I am 3 betting pre a lot. 3 bet pre gives you a better stance if it makes the flop. If he 4 bets as 10/8 an easy fold IMO.

But since he leads with c bet 100% you could float, altho I think I like raisin g better than floating,. BUT he is only playing 8% and from MP probably not that wide. So you are probably gonna be flipping at best. Since you didnt hit at all, you are probably behind here, so I could find a fold w/o too much problem.
Click to expand...

So you think 3-betting preflop is a more appropriate line even with this guy c-bettin 100% and a tight range?? Are you 3-bet folding if he 4-bets you pre?
 
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WVHillbilly said:
What's his turn cbet? If it's low you can float and then take the pot when he checks the turn. If it's high just fold now. And really you should probably just be folding preflop. AJs doesn't do well against his opening range.
Click to expand...

Umm I would have to go back and replay the hand to see check his turn c-bet...hypothetically speaking for purpose of this hand (i haven't checked the turn c-bet yet) but if it was in the middle and he fires out a turn c-bet after we floated the flop and it is another blank card like a 2 or something as this doesn't really change anything unless he had 35 but we kno that is highly unlikely with his HUD stats...would you be raising his turn bet here?
 
WVHillbilly

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No. He has tons of overpairs in his range and he's not folding any of them. Again I don't think you should have called preflop but I think raising at any point in the hand is really really bad and that includes 3betting preflop although that's miles better than raising either the flop or on a blank turn.
 
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Given how tight he is and how few hands you have on him, the 100% cbet stat could definately be skewed, it is not necessarily representative of his play. I would be possibly looking to 3b if he folds enough (over 127 hands you almost definitely have no idea) or folding pre. You have a marginal hand and are facing a ton of barrels on this low board so you really are not taking the pot down post flop often enough to be profitable.
 
fletchdad

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gsxr5221 said:
So you think 3-betting preflop is a more appropriate line even with this guy c-bettin 100% and a tight range?? Are you 3-bet folding if he 4-bets you pre?
Click to expand...


Of course. I am not staying in this hand blind, I either fold, get him to fold w/ a 3 bet or fold to his 4 bet. I dont think he is flatting my 3 bet here, and I would have bells going off big time if he did.

On retrospect after reading response here, (and having just watched part 4 in Coaching Kristy vol 1), I think folding is probably the best move. I will checxk my HEM but I am thinking this is one of my leaks, 3 betting EP-MP tighter players with perhaps decent but wrong hands.

So 3 betting not the appropriate move, but folding to the 4 bet absolutely.
 
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WVHillbilly said:
No. He has tons of overpairs in his range and he's not folding any of them. Again I don't think you should have called preflop but I think raising at any point in the hand is really really bad and that includes 3betting preflop although that's miles better than raising either the flop or on a blank turn.
Click to expand...

I understand what you are stating here and I agree with alot of it..I believe at the time the reason I called was because I had position on him (oop I deff fold this without thinking twice)...Other than that its probably not a profitable call since so much of his range beats me here.

(ps: I did end up winning this hand, but I do see how it isn't a profitable call in the long term).
 
WVHillbilly

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gsxr5221 said:
I understand what you are stating here and I agree with alot of it..I believe at the time the reason I called was because I had position on him (oop I deff fold this without thinking twice)...Other than that its probably not a profitable call since so much of his range beats me here.

(ps: I did end up winning this hand, but I do see how it isn't a profitable call in the long term).
Click to expand...
Having position is not reason enough to call here. If you'd been able to answer my question about how often he cbets the turn you might have had a reason to call BUT if he cbets 100% on the flop and almost always cbets the turn calling preflop is a pretty huge mistake. Now if you know that he cbets 100% on the flop but gives up without TPTK+ on the turn calling preflop might make some sense. Make your plan for the hand before you ever call the opening bet preflop. It will save you a ton of thinking and money postflop if you do.
 
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WVHillbilly said:
Having position is not reason enough to call here. If you'd been able to answer my question about how often he cbets the turn you might have had a reason to call BUT if he cbets 100% on the flop and almost always cbets the turn calling preflop is a pretty huge mistake. Now if you know that he cbets 100% on the flop but gives up without TPTK+ on the turn calling preflop might make some sense. Make your plan for the hand before you ever call the opening bet preflop. It will save you a ton of thinking and money postflop if you do.
Click to expand...

Alright thanks, greatly appreciate it...As far as your initial question I haven't been able to look up the stats on hm2 yet since I am not on my home computer
 
WVHillbilly

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It doesn't really matter since you didn't know when you needed it. Just one of those things you need to know before you start considering if someone is a good candidate for a float/turn bet or not.
 
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