10NL AQ on fairly safe board

[Jblocher1]

Ok guys. Was just at 10NL...

I pick up AQ in middle position... UTG limps in... Early position guys min raises to 20c, I 3 bet to 75c. The button calls... And so does the original raiser.

Flop hits Q33. Early position checks to me... I bet 1.50. Button folds and early position guy min re raises. What Is my play? I have extreme difficulty figuring out what he has here. I find it extremely doubtful he calls a 3 bet with a 3 in his hand. What do u guys think for a hand range? What is my play? I strongly contemplated a fold, but his line is so weird I have no idea.

 

[pistolpetewags11]

Very hard to give much advice here based on very little information...

Honestly, I think you can assume that AA and KK are out of the question. I would hope most people not just calling your 75 cent raise with those 2 hands at this game. But thats where its hard to determine, as no information on who the players are is given. I would call his bet, and go from there. I dont know how many chips you have left or what..but you should call here and assume your are good. Or up against AQ as well.

 

[Jblocher1]

I was 100 BB deep... I think calling is pretty weak because he leads the turn so often... And then what? He leads for about 35-40 BB based on the pot size and then I either have to commit my whole stack or fold on the turn therefore I should make the decision on whether or not I'm willing to commit my whole stack on the flop and fold if I'm not. Villain is an unknown and I don't have an HUD

 

[LD1977]

Having no notes sucks.

Generally EP minraise/call is some kind of a pair 22-QQ so definitely he has quads/FH in his range and the min chkraise is exactly the line he could take here. Also ATs-AK is possible with varying frequencies.

That being said, lots of people like to be aggro on paired boards and I would call him down here even if it means stackoff. You are ahead of most of his range, raising him achieves nothing and folding is silly.

 

[redwards92]

Having no notes sucks.

Generally EP minraise/call is some kind of a pair 22-QQ so definitely he has quads/FH in his range and the min chkraise is exactly the line he could take here. Also ATs-AK is possible with varying frequencies.

That being said, lots of people like to be aggro on paired boards and I would call him down here even if it means stackoff. You are ahead of most of his range, raising him achieves nothing and folding is silly.

^ yeah.

 

[JCgrind]

Having no notes sucks.

Generally EP minraise/call is some kind of a pair 22-QQ so definitely he has quads/FH in his range and the min chkraise is exactly the line he could take here. Also ATs-AK is possible with varying frequencies.

That being said, lots of people like to be aggro on paired boards and I would call him down here even if it means stackoff. You are ahead of most of his range, raising him achieves nothing and folding is silly.

^ this.

flat the raise and try to get to SD as cheap as possible. note what vill raises flops with IP in 3b pots on incredibly dry textures.

villains are gunna show up with a ton of air and under PPs here. once you call flop raise, turn will often go check check, at which point youre always good.

 

[Jblocher1]

^ this.

flat the raise and try to get to SD as cheap as possible. note what vill raises flops with IP in 3b pots on incredibly dry textures.

villains are gunna show up with a ton of air and under PPs here. once you call flop raise, turn will often go check check, at which point youre always good.

I thought the same way... Blank on turn and we got it in... He flips up QQ for the flopped boat and I drew dead

 

[LD1977]

GII on the turn is bad (you had to help obviously) since any aggression from you reduces chances to catch weaker hands. Not like you need to hurry it.

 

[Jblocher1]

It was inevitable. By calling the flop I was therefore recognizing that I would be willing to commit my entire stack to the pot. So I felt that whether or not we got it in on the turn didn't matter. He led out for like 4 dollars which was most of what I had behind anyway.

 

[mac11]

The only 3X is A3 and why min raise a 3bet flop with that hand. He might be slowplaying AA or KK. But I would just shove and depends on his stats if his fishy or what.

 

[JCgrind]

I think calling is pretty weak because he leads the turn so often... And then what?

Can i just reiterate that when we get raised on the flop, our only options are call or fold. never raise the flop for the exact reason you mentioned. calling IS weak, and opponent will very often lead the turn. By raising, all weaker Qs will fold, and so will opponents entire bluffing range. we want worse Qx and air to put in bets on the turn.

Before we click the call button on the flop, we have to have decided that were going to call off our stack on later streets.

 

[themosthigh]

why you 3betting EP raisers with AQ?

 

[mac11]

In a 3bet pot with shallow stacks. It is fine to raise there. Because they call with worse, especially a donk. And villain cant fold because he is pot committted anyway. If OP just calls, he too is committed so would be a mistake to fold the turn. Simple answer is shove or fold.

 

[LD1977]

Simple and incorrect, as explained (JCgrind explained my original post a bit deeper). Raising never folds out anything we are ahead of.

This is a cash game, not a tournament.

 

[JCgrind]

there really should be some thumb up and thumb down options, so that people who actually know what theyre talking about can do something to let the OP know that posts like mac11's are BAD INFORMATION.

 

[mac11]

What JC said is relevant to normal pots or if villain is deep and bluffing.
But its actually a bad bluff because he is repping a really narrow range of queens full
or 3x. Better to float and lead imo.
This is a 3bet pot. Do you think he is ever min raise/ folding 100 deep? Absolutely not. He is pot committed meaning it would be mistake for the OP to call/ fold and the villain to min raise/fold. Which means even if he was bluffing he still has to call off his stack.
And its never going check turn, check river ever.

 

[JCgrind]

But its actually a bad bluff because he is repping a really narrow range of queens full
or 3x.
This is a 3bet pot. Do you think he is ever min raise/ folding 100 deep? Absolutely not. He is pot committed meaning it would be mistake for the OP to call/ fold and the villain to min raise/fold.
And its never going check turn, check river ever.

its not a bad bluff at microstakes, as people are sitting there thinking 'i have king high and someone just raised me on Q33 (ie, a board that hits **** all hands), i better fold because king high doesnt beat anything, and he must have something, bc he raised'.

in other words, he doesnt need to rep anything, bc nobody thinks that hard.

if i got raised on this board, by an aggro or very competent opponent, AND i had air ie no showdown value i click it back here, because decent opponents who know this is a good flop to x/r bluff will generally do it by default (and have a higher-than-avg flop x/r frequency), and clicking it back on them is the counter to this

and read my post again braj,
1. OP is never call/folding. OP is bet/folding OR bet/call, call, calling.
2. I probably have a few thousand hands i could filter for in my DB where this is the flop action and the turn goes check check, river action whatever, and villain shows complete air or an underpair to the flop

levels.

 

[mac11]

It is a bad bluff at any stakes. In the same way it's bad to fast play queens full
in a 3 bet pot when the PFR is aggressive but that's beside the point.
But that's irrelevant. The point is villain is never min raise folding there 100bb deep and if he does its bad. Which means villain is bad which means he calls off whatever he called the 3bet and min raised the flop here.

edit also clicking it back as bluff on this flop is bad see the yeti theorem.

 

[gunburger]

Sorry, but I disagree with mac11. Don't think any of that information is relevant.

I probably wouldn't three bet preflop although it may not be too bad and you pick up a decent size pot fairly often without a flop.

On the flop, you simply call. There is no other option. If you are folding AQ on this board, then you are being exploited, especially for a minraise. Just call, call, call. If he shuts down, then you'll want at least one more bet to go in either on turn or river. If he continues to bet, then just call. If he has a better hand, then just reload. Someone clicking it back with Qs full on this flop is an egregious error and he will not be a winning player. Just reload and ante up. Don't be result oriented. At no point in this hand should you ever raise (unless he minbets or something dumb like that).

 

[mac11]

You guys are focussed on keeping in bluffs when everything suggests villain isn't bluffing and there is no stack to call, call call.

The OP 3bet his UTG open and cbet the flop showing strength. If villain is deep enough to bluff, the OP isn't deep enough to be bluffed.

If the OP just calls the check raise, the SPR is like nothing on the turn. You can't bluff someone is who is virtually all in. The only logical explanation isa that the villain is going with the hand and the only question is if the OPs is good enough.

 

[Jblocher1]

You guys are focussed on keeping in bluffs when everything suggests villain isn't bluffing and there is no stack to call, call call.

The OP 3bet his UTG open and cbet the flop showing strength. If villain is deep enough to bluff, the OP isn't deep enough to be bluffed.

If the OP just calls the check raise, the SPR is like nothing on the turn. You can't bluff someone is who is virtually all in. The only logical explanation isa that the villain is going with the hand and the only question is if the OPs is good enough.

This is kinda my thought process also. His check min raise looks uber strong

 

[gunburger]

You guys are focussed on keeping in bluffs when everything suggests villain isn't bluffing and there is no stack to call, call call.

The OP 3bet his UTG open and cbet the flop showing strength. If villain is deep enough to bluff, the OP isn't deep enough to be bluffed.

If the OP just calls the check raise, the SPR is like nothing on the turn. You can't bluff someone is who is virtually all in. The only logical explanation isa that the villain is going with the hand and the only question is if the OPs is good enough.

Villain may think TT and JJ, any Qx (or any pair for that matter) is a value bet here and indeed may not be "bluffing". He may also be doing a "feeler raise" or whatever fish do. So raising to move him off of these crushed hands is horrendous. Also, raising to move him off of his air is hilarious.

He's not committing himself. Not sure why you keep saying this. I believe he still has 62.5% of his stack left if I'm not missing something. SPR is worth mentioning because he's not going to just dump his stack in with air here regardless of SPR which is why we need to keep bluffs in.

At no point in this hand should AQ ever fold or ever raise, period.

 

[turko7272]

I think calling is pretty weak because he leads the turn so often :albertein

 

[mac11]

Villain may think TT and JJ, any Qx (or any pair for that matter) is a value bet here and indeed may not be "bluffing". He may also be doing a "feeler raise" or whatever fish do. So raising to move him off of these crushed hands is horrendous. Also, raising to move him off of his air is hilarious.

He's not committing himself. Not sure why you keep saying this. I believe he still has 62.5% of his stack left if I'm not missing something. SPR is worth mentioning because he's not going to just dump his stack in with air here regardless of SPR which is why we need to keep bluffs in.

At no point in this hand should AQ ever fold or ever raise, period.

OP says he has 4 bucks or 40 big blinds left to call one more bet after betting the flop and calling the reraise which he did on the turn.

It was inevitable. By calling the flop I was therefore recognizing that I would be willing to commit my entire stack to the pot. So I felt that whether or not we got it in on the turn didn't matter. He led out for like 4 dollars which was most of what I had behind anyway.

he can't be bluffed further.

 

[JCgrind]

You guys are focussed on keeping in bluffs when everything suggests villain isn't bluffing and there is no stack to call, call call.

The OP 3bet his UTG open and cbet the flop showing strength. If villain is deep enough to bluff, the OP isn't deep enough to be bluffed.

If the OP just calls the check raise, the SPR is like nothing on the turn. You can't bluff someone is who is virtually all in. The only logical explanation isa that the villain is going with the hand and the only question is if the OPs is good enough.

1. maybe not, but nobody is pot committed on the turn. and even if they were, i regularly see people fold out of $40+ pots with $7 behind at 10nl. its 10nl people play bad.

2. its microstakes, stop leveling yourself and being results orientated.

3. without actually doing the math, assumign full stacks, if hero calls the x/r OTF he still has like >60 biebers. how is that pot committed you peanut. yes, if hero calls flop, hero must always call down- but a villain bluffing isnt going to think 'well gee, hes pot commited here so theres zero point bluffing' because a) villain likely isnt thinking and b) its simply not true here!

Villain may think TT and JJ, any Qx (or any pair for that matter) is a value bet here and indeed may not be "bluffing". He may also be doing a "feeler raise" or whatever fish do. So raising to move him off of these crushed hands is horrendous. Also, raising to move him off of his air is hilarious.

He's not committing himself. Not sure why you keep saying this. I believe he still has 62.5% of his stack left if I'm not missing something. SPR is worth mentioning because he's not going to just dump his stack in with air here regardless of SPR which is why we need to keep bluffs in.

At no point in this hand should AQ ever fold or ever raise, period.

^ pretty much this x1,000,000.

OP says he has 4 bucks or 40 big blinds left to call one more bet after betting the flop and calling the reraise which he did on the turn.

it says he led for ~$4, not shipped for ~$4. to me, this implys hero shoved over OTT and was snapped off