1 or 2 fish to your left

Seems like a complete overhaul of playing style is needed when this happens. It happens regularly, sometimes it will be aggro fish who will min raise you every time, other times they will just be stations will 0 FE.

I tend to limp with every hand, with the exception of 99,TT,JJ,QQ,KK and AA? Maybe it's even worth finding a different table, with fish to your right?

The variance is also massive against these players, and if you are unlucky you can lose a few BI very quickly. I find them pretty tilting to play against at times too.

How do you approach?

There's nothing wrong with changing tables when you're not in the mood to play a certain type of table. Of course, you can't do this all the time and expect to improve your ability to handle such tables.

That said, don't automatically assume that anyone who's aggro is a fish. There are very good LAGs at every level. So part of your job is to assess how good or bad each is in order to decide whether to stay, and if you do, to adjust accordingly.

In general, even if they're not strong, you have to accept that you don't the full advantage of your skill differential since you're OOP, and also that to benefit from your remaining advantage, you have to accept the increased variance that comes from playing larger pots than you'd like to with hand ranges that are somewhat wider than you'd like.

So you would prefer good players to your left? O.O

Just don't bluff at these players, even continuation betting unless it is a super dry board, just get your hand and value town them. I notice a lot of fish love to float flop bets so sometimes a 2nd barrel is not a horrible idea.

Also, try 4 betting with weaker hands against the aggro fish tht are min raising since you are still ahead of their range as a whole.

We also have to remember that if you play the fish correctly, you will win in the long haul. Too many people focus on individual pots. I gladly lose a few little pots to the fish so that I can snatch a huge pot away from them on a later hand.
If the fish constantly min raise you, counter with a big re-raise. Say, half the pot or better to scare them away or get them to give you even more of their money.
Be ready to lose a couple pots though, just don't sweat it too much as you'll make it back plus more if you play correctly in these situations.

Good points so far. Regarding the 4-betting, for example today 2 aggro fish were to my left. They were something like 80/60/4+. They were happy to shove the flop on gutshots, flush draws etc, even ace high. When we don't pick up premiums are we still 4-betting them? They can 5 bet shove, in which we can't really call, with J10 for example, can we? Also of we miss the flop there's no way we can continue OOP, and we've lost around 20BB. I did profit from them, I just trapped then put a value bet on the river for them to call off which seemed to work. Maybe I could have gotten more from 4-betting, though. The high pocket pairs seem to virtually guarantee we can win the pot, whereas there's much more risk with marginally strong hands. Probably me being too results orientated.

Probably not 4 betting J10, more like 99+ KQ+ are all ahead of the majority of their range so you can 4 bet for value.

akaRobbo said:

Good points so far. Regarding the 4-betting, for example today 2 aggro fish were to my left. They were something like 80/60/4+. They were happy to shove the flop on gutshots, flush draws etc, even ace high. When we don't pick up premiums are we still 4-betting them? They can 5 bet shove, in which we can't really call, with J10 for example, can we? Also of we miss the flop there's no way we can continue OOP, and we've lost around 20BB. I did profit from them, I just trapped then put a value bet on the river for them to call off which seemed to work. Maybe I could have gotten more from 4-betting, though. The high pocket pairs seem to virtually guarantee we can win the pot, whereas there's much more risk with marginally strong hands. Probably me being too results orientated.

Click to expand...

Their not "aggro fishes" their "aggro donks", fishes are bad players that play passively.

I should know as I am an aggro donk

apart from:
-any position in preflop
-UTG
it is a great chance to set traps with fish and if they are really fish, you'll soon identify what kind they are by observing their betting patterns.
If they're madly betting and one such hands you get monster hands or nuts, you know the drill

btw, I'm a fish and I'm learning to think like a non-fish.

You are absolutely correct I have myself touched on this matter and after encountering several such situations I devised a strategy to play on these tables. And that is to limp most of the time as you yourself said. If you stick to the standard 3x raise all the time then that from my experience won't work in this sort of a table.

If you are playing fish who always raise pre then limp with your premium hand and give them a good 3 bet in return.

If you are playing fish who call and almost never raise and you have AA UTG what to do? It's a tricky spot if you do a 3x raise the fish will obviously call which could entice the whole table to play the hand as everyone will be priced in. So I guess in that spot start off with a bigger bet we don't want a family pot with AA we would rather everyone fold.

Oh and BTW AK is a monster against aggro fish you should not be scared of shipping it all in pre, those fish aren't folding AQ and Axs.

Thinker_145 said:

You are absolutely correct I have myself touched on this matter and after encountering several such situations I devised a strategy to play on these tables. And that is to limp most of the time as you yourself said. If you stick to the standard 3x raise all the time then that from my experience won't work in this sort of a table.

If you are playing fish who always raise pre then limp with your premium hand and give them a good 3 bet in return.

If you are playing fish who call and almost never raise and you have AA UTG what to do? It's a tricky spot if you do a 3x raise the fish will obviously call which could entice the whole table to play the hand as everyone will be priced in. So I guess in that spot start off with a bigger bet we don't want a family pot with AA we would rather everyone fold.

Click to expand...

Great response. In addition to 3x raise to avoid fish, have there been instances where the 'family' knows the drill of 3x and you have had to modify your approach?

If so, were they just changes like 5x to shrug off too many 'family' members entering the pot after 2nd street?

I encountered a 3x raiser as a standard move and was able to evade his wrath. Fortunately he/her were 4 positions away and I had many players to follow to help me call the 3x raiser.

The cuts are deeper when dealing with such players.

sj_pi said:

Great response. In addition to 3x raise to avoid fish, have there been instances where the 'family' knows the drill of 3x and you have had to modify your approach?

If so, were they just changes like 5x to shrug off too many 'family' members entering the pot after 2nd street?

I encountered a 3x raiser as a standard move and was able to evade his wrath. Fortunately he/her were 4 positions away and I had many players to follow to help me call the 3x raiser.

The cuts are deeper when dealing with such players.

Click to expand...

I do a 3x raise every time I am opening the pot but change that style when calling stations are on my left. I don't think you quite understood what I was trying to say?

Or maybe I am not understanding what you are trying to say.

These days I find it too annoying to have fish on the left since:
- They float a lot. It pisses me off when I can't cbet without hitting the flop fairly hard.
- They defend their blinds too much, but this only means I have to win showdowns A LOT to profit from it.

Basically I have to change my game play too much and the benefits are questionable. Also being OOP while card dead or outdrawn on nonstop is tilting (even though I don't tilt much but still...).

You hit the nail on the head when you opened up the topic. We should always be looking for a table with players who aren't as skilled as we are, whatever the reason. If fish to your right interferes with your game or causes you to go on tilt, you should absolutely move to another table. Always, always look for a soft table to play at. It's basic strategy before you even sit down. If you're a poker player managing a bank roll in the hopes of continuing on a professional path, you should be looking for a table that you can beat. Period. This does mean wandering and watching in the casino and choosing the table that you wish to play at and not just sitting down anywhere. If the top pros weren't so easily recognizable, would you like to sit down with them for your money? Maybe for a thrill but not really for the money.

It doesnt matter where a fish is (left or right), it matters if u r the shark or not.
If you play your hands well every fish will be tilting and every shark will be folding.
If safe playing is your play style you can go for "fishing".
If you play aggressive dont try bluff fish cuz they have the ability to get rly lucky.

Staneff said:

It doesnt matter where a fish is (left or right)

Click to expand...

It really does matter....

Staneff said:

It doesnt matter where a fish is (left or right), it matters if u r the shark or not.
If you play your hands well every fish will be tilting and every shark will be folding.
If safe playing is your play style you can go for "fishing".
If you play aggressive dont try bluff fish cuz they have the ability to get rly lucky.

Click to expand...

Huh?

With enough skill advantage, you can be profitable vs fish regardless of position. But you'll be more profitable IP. So how does position not matter?

Every fish will tilt and every good player will always get out of your way? Can I rub the genie's lamp next?

Don't bluff fish because they can get lucky? Certain types of fish are very good targets to bluff.

As stated, position does matter. Vs certain fish, I do think position is not as important as it may be normaly, in the respect that they play in a way that you can exploit even OOP, but position is never not an advantage.

1. Position does matter. It is the second important thing that matters after skill.
2. The best skill in poker is table selection. If possible , table select until you find the best table. Nit directly on your left, fish on your right. Most of the players do not understand how important is to learn to put yourself in good situations.
3. Hand selection. A lot of players see the starting hand charts over the internet but they do not understand exactly how to use them. Those starting hands are the best when you are at a good table. To be at a good table you need to table select.

Position matters, even against fish players. You will be more profitable against fish IP rather than playing against them OOP. Would you rather have a reg on your left though? If you don't like playing 70/30 or 60/40 hands against fish because of the variance, you should get a proper bankroll.

A payday will come soon enough.

Yes there are such that every hand come limping,and to raise 3bb often say fold,and usually after doubling his stack, should be 2-3 of the hand in which one can lose much of their stack, or even your entire stack

i was playing a mtt and it was a guy that was standing first almost from the very beginning, and when 2 tables were remaining, the guy was right to me, he played every hand no matter the size of the raise he payed, very lag player,

i got pocket jacks and raised from 1k to 4k he payed, flop 73T rainbow i bet 5k n payed, turn 2 bet 10k and he payed river ace and i fold (with the doubt of what he had)

but then i didnt play anymore until i got kings and shoved and the guy payed, and i noticed the guy was entering (obviously) with any 2, so just patience, next hand i had aces and flop A55 (FULL) and the guy try to play again as if he had the aces,

the point is that this guy who started with almost 100k remaining 2 tables with and average of less than 15k didnt manage to reach the ft, so maybe they are luck but because we need to be more patience with players like that and just play monster hands!

When there are for sure fishes to your left you really need to just play solid poker. By this I mean not trying anything which involves bluffing according to there ranges etc. As fishes don't really have a set range, they will call bluffs pre with hands like j10 as if its a monster, so you can't put them on many things postflop. I tend to play small pots with fishes mostly, but when you do pick up the premiums you can play bigger pots as they will call with weaker hands whether you raise 2x or 3x, because they want to see flops.