Sharkscope and PokerStars

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TurboBill

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Does anyone have any idea why pokerstars allows Sharkescope to hold a player account on the site to facilitate Opting in or opting out of their datamined database given that to mine PokerStars is against their rules?

I tried to chech the system for opting out on the Sharkescope Site
and you are asked two things:

1. Your PokerStars ID
2. Your Email address - normally this will be the same as the one associated with your PokerStars account.

If you provide this information (I entered some nonsense) you are then shown a web page telling you to transfer 0.01c to the Sharescope Player ID on PokerStars.

To tell you this they don't need your ID or email address! So it seems they are poaching these as well as hand histories.- All with the support of PokerStars.

PokerStars seem to be confused as to whether this site is acceptable or not. I for one would not give them any personal details. It annoys me to see that they broadcast data from poached hand histories and PokerStars helps them in this way. If an ordinary player did this he would be banned.
 
The Gent

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Not sure about this, but find that looking at sharkscope to track your own play is reasonable. PS are against checking out other peoples stats while you are playing against them.

No biggy really as you can just have another laptop/netbook open next to you with the thing open anyway, I got a cheap low spec one from ebay that can just surf and keep as a back up machine incase something happens to my main one.
 
MrHopeful

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i use pokerprolabs to check stats of players
 
forsakenone

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pokerprolabs works just fine for me too, however i did opt in for sharkskope, didnt know pokerstars doesnt like them, they didnt say anything tho.
 
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WiZZiM

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like any others, you jsut cant use it while your logged on to pokerstars, you risk getting banned.. having said that i do it all the time. im not too worried about it.. pretty hard to police such a thing..
 
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WiZZiM

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and its absurb if Pokerprolabs is allowed. its exactly the same thing.. cept labs even has a hud you can use. lol..
 
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TurboBill

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and its absurb if Pokerprolabs is allowed. its exactly the same thing.. cept labs even has a hud you can use. lol..

This is my point. PokerStars seem to be all mixed up on the issue of what is allowed and what is not. Any book on poker will tell you to that to win you need to have an edge. If a guy is drunk on the table you have an edge, equally if he is on tilt or you got a read on him this is what it is about.

I have no problem with people using these tools or data mining or whatever. What I dislike is when they say that something is against their rules but they actively work to assist these companies to continue in business. Cutting out data mining is really easy. Full Tilt did it, cakewalk did it.

Pokerstars say it is against their rules but they make it easy for people to mine results and sell hand histories to use in Poker Tracker etc.,

Basically they turn a blind eye to Sharkescope (but you can't use it when on a table) a blind eye to Prolabs (use it whenever you like). A blind eye to Poker Trackers when they know that with the massive number of players on the site a database made up of just the hands you played would be pretty useless.)

Yet if you or I get caught mining data then it is called cheating. That's my point.

Either Allow anyone to mine, use whatever software they like or whatever or cut out the source of all this stuff which is the easy way they make it for the chosen few to mine their data.
 
suit2please

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How does sharkscope or pokerprolabs mine hands? Hand histories are not even related to either site, they just collect and show tournament results, profit/loss, roi, etc. I don't get your point, since the data mining part isn't related.
 
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dmorris68

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I have no problem with people using these tools or data mining or whatever. What I dislike is when they say that something is against their rules but they actively work to assist these companies to continue in business. Cutting out data mining is really easy. Full Tilt did it, cakewalk did it.

Pokerstars say it is against their rules but they make it easy for people to mine results and sell hand histories to use in Poker Tracker etc.,

Basically they turn a blind eye to Sharkescope (but you can't use it when on a table) a blind eye to Prolabs (use it whenever you like). A blind eye to Poker Trackers when they know that with the massive number of players on the site a database made up of just the hands you played would be pretty useless.)

Yet if you or I get caught mining data then it is called cheating. That's my point.

Either Allow anyone to mine, use whatever software they like or whatever or cut out the source of all this stuff which is the easy way they make it for the chosen few to mine their data.
FT did not eliminate data mining, as numerous sites mine FT and sell FT HH's. The only reason Cake can't reliably be mined is because they (a) allow regular nick changes, (b) obfuscate player names in HH's, and (c) constantly change up their HH format. However this makes tracking your own stats against players you've played against virtually impossible, which is why Cake isn't nearly as popular, especially among solid regs who live by their own stats.

As suit2please points out, tourney stat sites like SS and OPR that don't sell HH's don't even have to mine hands, they just scrape tourney lobbies to gather results.

Point of technicality: datamining and referencing datamined hands are not the same thing, so comparing someone using SS/PTR/OPR/etc to look up some stats is not the same thing as actually running the datamine yourself. True, most sites tell you that buying HH's is against their TOS, but it's an unenforceable rule, as is a rule against browsing any site while not playing.

Obviously PS and FT tolerate the mining sites. PS asked them to implement an opt-in/out system and they complied. FT for awhile disallowed OPR from tracking any tournament stats, but then relented in negotiations and allow them to track only MTTs of 27 players or more. So obviously they think it's probably in their best interest to negotiate with and gain some concessions, versus trying to stop it entirely -- a virtually impossible task unless they take the draconian measures that Cake takes, which cripples tracking your own stats against players you've played with. The player outcry would be deafening.

As to whether they can detect and enforce which sites you browse while playing, the answer is yes, they can. Technically it's a trivial matter to monitor what you're browsing while their software is running, just as they monitor what other software you might have running (or even installed) that is on their prohibited list. I've read others claim to have been warned for browsing PTR/SS/OPR while playing at PS/FT.
 
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TurboBill

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How does sharkscope or pokerprolabs mine hands? Hand histories are not even related to either site, they just collect and show tournament results, profit/loss, roi, etc. I don't get your point, since the data mining part isn't related.

Quite Correct. They mine data from the tournament lobbies rather than hand histories. This is basically the same - it is still mining and it is
supposed to be against the PokerStars Terms and Conditions.

Nevertheless Sharkescope are allowed to have a player account open that is not for playing poker but simply to facilitate users to opt into or out of their database. The same database that PokerStars thinks is bad enough to ban people from using whilst they are playing on the tables.

(Also a dumb rule as - like most people nowadays I have more than one computer in my house so it is so easy to circumvent this by using Sharkescope on a second machine).

My point is that PokerStars should not dictate what software we use at all. To me everything is fair game. However, if they want to stop what they call "cheating" then make the software harder to mine. Spying on running processes is an invasion of privacy.

I sometimes use Excel to analyse hands. Is this cheating?. Should PokerStars ban Excel?
 
dmorris68

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My point is that PokerStars should not dictate what software we use at all. To me everything is fair game. However, if they want to stop what they call "cheating" then make the software harder to mine. Spying on running processes is an invasion of privacy.
Have to disagree here.

First, it ceases to be an invasion of privacy when you explicitly grant them permission to do so, and that's what you do when you agree to their Terms of Service (whether people realize it or not). It's not like they're peeping in your window, or watching what you do on the computer outside of playing poker. They clearly state that while you play poker on their site, they reserve the right to monitor your PC in order to protect their customers and their business. I have no issue with that, and anyone that does can choose not to play there and thus retain their expectation of privacy.

Second, they must be able to monitor the software you have on the PC otherwise they have zero defense against the plethora of bots, hacks, and cheats that are continually being developed to win at poker through nefarious means. This activity steals money from us legit customers and, left unmonitored and unchecked, would further paint the image of online poker as being an unsafe, wild-west environment, which will only hurt their business.

I'd much rather sit at a table with players who are looking at my datamined stats, than at a table full of bots. There is no possible way they can police that without monitoring the software running while the poker client is running. This practice is also prevalent in multiplayer video gaming, whether MMORPGs like World of Warcraft, or on multiplayer FPS servers that use services like PunkBuster while hosting games like CounterStrike and Battlefield2. All of those monitor your PC activity while playing, looking for bots/cheats/hacks as well. which monitor your system for cheats/hacks. In the poker world it's even more crucial due to the large sums of real money at stake.
 
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Chappyski

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I have a problem with Sharkscope, that I did not give them permission to access and broadcast to others my personal data.

I contacted them and gave them 3 warnings to remove it.

They keep saying I can opt out myself, but I am not willing to enter my email on the site and they refuse to remove my usernames from their database.


Where do I stand legally, as I believe they are acting illegally by sharing my information?
 
dmorris68

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I have a problem with Sharkscope, that I did not give them permission to access and broadcast to others my personal data.

I contacted them and gave them 3 warnings to remove it.

They keep saying I can opt out myself, but I am not willing to enter my email on the site and they refuse to remove my usernames from their database.


Where do I stand legally, as I believe they are acting illegally by sharing my information?

First, you just bumped a post that's almost 2 years old. Not a good idea.

Second, overreact much? Your poker results are not personal, protected information. Tournament results are available to anybody, whether they play in the tournament or not -- it's not like SS is a datamining site like PTR that has nearly every hand you play. And even then, again, it's not protected information. You have no legal expectation of privacy at the poker table, and thus no legal leg to stand on. It's not like they're "broadcasting" your real name, address, DOB, SSN, etc. Nothing they collect on you can be used against you other than at the poker table.

You can opt out and I don't see why you wouldn't give them your email if you felt so strongly about it. Not sure why some people get hung up on giving out their email when I can guarantee you it's already "in the wild." And they don't even have to give you a choice to opt-out, they only do it to appease PokerStars and other sites who ask them to. There will always be sites that collect this data, there's nothing you can do about it. Best not to let it concern you, and just play your game.
 
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forgive me for bringing up an old post, but I am new here and I found this forum post by way of a google search into Sharkscope illegal activities.

Why should I have to opt out of something I DID NOT opt into in the first place???

Then they get my email address to share on other databases, no thanks.

They do not have my consent to store, process or pass on my details, my records of poker winnings and my bank details are private no matter how much money I win at poker

I am considering a group legal action against this sort of data collection.

It should be opt in not opt out

ps it also means that I have to find every single site online and opt out of those that record my personal details?????

I Wish to opt out of any data collection about myself, unless otherwise requested.

this will be my legal base on the matter


What I have found out so far is that CJM Solutions LLC run the site and the 3 people i would be sueing are Sunil Chiluvuri, Stephen Maye and Hector Jhong.

I am hoping for the support of others in the matter, as I am not sure I can afford legal action alone:(
 
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dmorris68

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Oy.

They don't need your consent to store your poker results. It is not private information. Bank details? They don't store your bank details, lol.

I believe it's time someone told you that the world is full of data collection organizations that collect every non-private piece of information about you and your activities. It's a multi-billion dollar industry, in fact. Information isn't legally private just because you want it to be, there is actually very little about you that is legally protected.

If you've ever been listed in a phone book, your name, address, and phone number are public information and already on a number of publicly accessible lists. Your email address is no doubt well known on the internet. How much your home cost and who your mortage is with? Likewise a matter of public record. What web sites you visits, and what things you buy? Collected by a number of marketing firms. Depending on your TV programming source, what TV shows you watch has been compiled. In other words, a heck of a lot more data than just your poker tournament/SNG results is being collected on you, all of which has stood the legal test of being fair game.

Again, you're being a bit silly. I could see you being indignant about your poker hands being datamined and sold -- none of us particularly care for that, although one can actually find merit in that too. Like it or not, even that degree of information is legal if not a violation of poker site T&Cs. But SS is only tracking your tournament/SnG results, and it's not the only site that does so. These results are available to anyone who wishes to take a look at a poker lobby -- there is no expectation of privacy there. Oh, and perhaps it will surprise you, but there are sites that *gasp* track live tournament results too! So not liking the fact that people can scope you to find out how bad you play is one thing. Taking it to this extreme is pretty absurd.
 
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chappyonthemove

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For some reason my account on this site was banned.

I am only speaking the truth and I feel it is wrong that others abuse peoples date without even asking for permission to use it

Is this site not open for discussion or do you ban everyone that has an opinion???

As I mentioned earlier

CJM Solutions LLC


The 3 named as running this illegal activity are named as

Sunil Chiluvuri, Stephen Maye and Hector Jhong

they are the people I will be sueing and I ask for help in doing so
 
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chappyonthemove

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I just read your last message and perhaps you are correct but there is no reason to ban me for having a discussion and have to created another account to reply
Its like you are scared of discussing something
 
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chappyonthemove

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Can you please un ban my main account, I am not a bad person. I have made a lot of money at poker and have a lot of stories to tell about doing so. I just feel its wrong for others to use data that wasnt consented
 
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BlueNowhere

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You were probably banned because you're a ****ing idiot and I wish that a minimum IQ quota was set up on any public forum so I didn't have to read shit like 'running this illegal activity' from uneducated morons like you.

I'm all for bans on people who are stupid personally, hopefully we'll see it implemented across the whole of the internet.
 
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chappyonthemove

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Actually I took an iq test at only 15 years old and was recorded at 155.

I have been a member of MENSA for 24 years lol

http://www.mensa.org.uk/
 
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BlueNowhere

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Yes I know what MENSA is since I happen to also be a member. Where did you take your test?
 
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chappyonthemove

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Manchester University 1987
 
dmorris68

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Guys, let's stop with the name calling. It's one thing to criticize the OP's thought process on this, but I think calling it silly and absurd is far enough. "****ing idiot" is over the line.

OP, I'm not sure why you were banned, but I have to expect it was due to the fact your first posts here were, well, absurd. And generally speaking, creating a new account to get around a forum ban is a sure way to get banned again, likely by IP this time. So perhaps you should talk to a mod/admin before you post much more.

Also, general intelligence is no indicator of specific intelligence, social awareness, or level of naivete.
 
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Can you please un ban my main account, I am not a bad person. I have made a lot of money at poker and have a lot of stories to tell about doing so. I just feel its wrong for others to use data that wasnt consented

what is your main account?
 
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