Question for Poker Room employees/management?

I had a conversation with an ex room manager from the Chicagoland/Hammond area recently, and he told me that in order to just break even on tournament play the room was told it needed something like 11 bucks and hour from each player at each table during a given donkament....//

So, it was quite easy to calculate needed vig by simply calculating the avg time it took each player to bust and multiplying it by 11 and then adding X for profit.

My question is simply this: WHERE DO YOU GET THE FIGURES TO LEAD YOU TO 11 DOLLARS/HR (i'm sure this varies...) needed to break even?

To me it seems wayyy high bc you are only incurring MARGINAL expenditures and the donkament obviously helps cash rakes as well.

As an aside to any dealers/managers, what SHOULD a poker dealer in this economy expect to earn hourly?

Should a dealer who is FT and gets peak hours be compelled to work a bit of OT or whatever in a tournament with the expectation of less than 15 dollars an hour?

Keep in mind these economic times, and the skill set dealers actually offer/their replaceability(word?).

Should staff strongly encourage toking at the end of tournaments...and do so even in the open in front of the winners thereby putting high cashiers on the spot in front of other players vis a vis their decision to toke?


I ask these questions not to be rude or to admonish the industry, but because I see fields waning everywhere and see myself not attracted to local tournaments because the vig/forced toking structure is simply too big, and when I tell staff this all I hear is "the fish dont care...."...but when I talk to regular players they seem all too conscious of this.

A great example of this is the tightness with which many (not all) Pkr room managers hand out food comps and room comps. Now, I KNOW how much the local casino spends on a typical buffet patron, it is around 5-6 dollars a piece. So you've got a regular who is getting raked ~14 bucks/ hr at 2/5 or more, and you won't just write the dude a comp after a few hours play to try to induce him to stay, eat then play a couple more hours?

That is simply nonsensical, and it needs to change if the games are going to be sustainable in this new economy.

Same thing for off peak room comps...essentially they cost the hotel something like 10-15 dollars in MARGINAL costs...and you do not want to comp a room for some guy who has played 10 hours on a friday and who will probably come back sat afternoon if you comp him?

I am not saying you should hand out room comps willy nilly, mostly bc some people might actually pay X to stay at a casino, but offering 25/45 dollar rooms to people who play a lot and will most likely play more the next day if they are staying next door, makes sense in a lot of situations, no?

I believe a revolution in how sharp many poker players are has occurred via sites like 2p2, here, etc, and the industry just has chosen to ignore the new realities.

More than likely he saying that if they didn't have the tourney running they would be expecting that much per player per hour for a cash table minimum. Remember if a table is being used for a tourney it can't be used as a cash table.

WVHillbilly said:

More than likely he saying that if they didn't have the tourney running they would be expecting that much per player per hour for a cash table minimum. Remember if a table is being used for a tourney it can't be used as a cash table.

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...which is why they most often run tournaments at off peak hours where there is virtually no chance that donkaments cannibalize cash games.

In a casino, poker is by far the lowest profit center in the house (if not a loss leader to get the gamblers in the place so they will also play other games). Even in a place like Commerce Casino in Los Angeles which is the largest poker room in the World, the place could not survive without the Asian Games Rake, especially PAN 9. And you are talking about a place that takes a lot of rake...

Poker players have historically always thought they provided a greater benefit, and are well-known for asking for a ton of comps, food, etc on a much higher basis then what they provide in revenue.

The best thing you can do as a poker player is search out those places that provide a good value, and scoop up any extras the house is providing. If casinos continue to get squeezed, you can guarantee the poker room is the first thing to get hit.

WEC said:

In a casino, poker is by far the lowest profit center in the house (if not a loss leader to get the gamblers in the place so they will also play other games). Even in a place like Commerce Casino in Los Angeles which is the largest poker room in the World, the place could not survive without the Asian Games Rake, especially PAN 9. And you are talking about a place that takes a lot of rake...

Poker players have historically always thought they provided a greater benefit, and are well-known for asking for a ton of comps, food, etc on a much higher basis then what they provide in revenue.

The best thing you can do as a poker player is search out those places that provide a good value, and scoop up any extras the house is providing. If Casinos continue to get squeezed, you can guarantee the poker room is the first thing to get hit.

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I Actually completely agree with the bolded portions...of course a lot of it is due to the insane taxes/revenue sharing programs states have...and licensure requirements. If you could just lease out a storefront and hire a staff. buy tables, etc. it be a trivial matter to run low vig tournaments and still turn a profit.(something like +11.5% up to 300 BI, 10% for 300 to 1000, and 7.5% for high buy ins)

That being said, most of the costs incurred by having a poker room are fixed and represent opportunity costs sacrificed by not having slots...and other huge money makers for the house.

Once they decide to have a poker room...they've incurred most of those costs, so decisions from that point should be pretty much rational from a management perspective.

I also wouldn't mind seeing SOME consolidation in the industry if it meant bigger/more efficient rooms which offered better value especially in the areas of MTT rake and loyalty programs/live rakeback.

FTR, I DONT think 10% rake can be achieved feasibly live UNDER perhaps a 250 buy in price point....
it is for the buyins between 250 and 1000 that I see huge gouging from my perspective especially when you see management shove toking down people's throats.

i hate casinos

There are a lot of reasons why I do not like casino play. Some of the reasons have been mentioned in this thread.

I'm so glad my lodge/poker club did not get locked down for good as was threatened. We got very lucky this last time. It was the third time the lodge has been busted but I believe we are gonna be safe from now on because of things I can not discuss here.

Anyways, our lodge like any casino will comp all players that have earned it with free drinks, free food yada yada.....but we comp some things that the casinos do not comp (which is one of the reasons why we got busted the last time). We still comp this but we now handle it a little different or shall I say smarter...lol. In other words we now grease a palm here and there.

The formentioned things and the RAKE not to mention the privacy are just some of the reasons our club has grown so much.
1/2 nl rake:
1$ on each pot no matter the pot size. No rake on pots below $4

2/4 nl rake:
$2 on each pot no matter the pot size. No rake on pots below $8

5/10 nl rake is a little different:
pots under $20 = no rake....pots between $21 and $100 are $3....pots between $101 and $300 = $5.....pots $301 and above =$8

10/20 nl rake and beyond is % of pot:
pots under $40 = no rake....pots between $41 and $100 is 2%.....pots between $101 and $300 is 3%.....pots between $301 and $500 is 4%......pots $501 and up is 5%

20/40 nl rake:
pots under $70 = no rake....pots between $71 and $100 is 3%.....pots between $101 and $600 is 4%.....pots between $601 and $1000 is 4%......pots $1001 and up is 5%

50/100 nl rake:
pots under $150 = no rake....pots between $151 and $300 is 3%.....pots between $301 and $600 is 4%.....pots above $601 is 5%

100/200 nl rake:
Rake is 5% of all pots.

I am going to ask the governor of lodge if it is ok for me to disclose the name and location on here in case some of you are interested in playing on a free pass and maybe even joining club (fee is $100 a year with back ground check) if 51% of members vote yes on the join.......other wise you are refunded your money.

After I ask him and if he says it is ok I will contact support here to make sure it is ok on their end before I post info.

Rake

jrctherake said:

There are a lot of reasons why I do not like casino play. Some of the reasons have been mentioned in this thread.

I'm so glad my lodge/poker club did not get locked down for good as was threatened. We got very lucky this last time. It was the third time the lodge has been busted but I believe we are gonna be safe from now on because of things I can not discuss here.

Anyways, our lodge like any casino will comp all players that have earned it with free drinks, free food yada yada.....but we comp some things that the casinos do not comp (which is one of the reasons why we got busted the last time). We still comp this but we now handle it a little different or shall I say smarter...lol. In other words we now grease a palm here and there.

The formentioned things and the RAKE not to mention the privacy are just some of the reasons our club has grown so much.
1/2 nl rake:
1$ on each pot no matter the pot size. No rake on pots below $4

2/4 nl rake:
$2 on each pot no matter the pot size. No rake on pots below $8

5/10 nl rake is a little different:
pots under $20 = no rake....pots between $21 and $100 are $3....pots between $101 and $300 = $5.....pots $301 and above =$8

10/20 nl rake and beyond is % of pot:
pots under $40 = no rake....pots between $41 and $100 is 2%.....pots between $101 and $300 is 3%.....pots between $301 and $500 is 4%......pots $501 and up is 5%

20/40 nl rake:
pots under $70 = no rake....pots between $71 and $100 is 3%.....pots between $101 and $600 is 4%.....pots between $601 and $1000 is 4%......pots $1001 and up is 5%

50/100 nl rake:
pots under $150 = no rake....pots between $151 and $300 is 3%.....pots between $301 and $600 is 4%.....pots above $601 is 5%

100/200 nl rake:
Rake is 5% of all pots.

I am going to ask the governor of lodge if it is ok for me to disclose the name and location on here in case some of you are interested in playing on a free pass and maybe even joining club (fee is $100 a year with back ground check) if 51% of members vote yes on the join.......other wise you are refunded your money.

After I ask him and if he says it is ok I will contact support here to make sure it is ok on their end before I post info.

Rake

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Wow, obv this would be one of the best raking structures ive seen for low and midstakes (I consider 2/5 to be a midstakes game as they play outside California/Commerce)...and an absolutely horrendous structure for high stakes.

What I suspect is true is that high stakes just isnt regular and basically the games are so irregular and juicy that people dont mind that level of rake for access to whales and high security/game integrity.

I dont think you could maintain a regular casino high stakes game where there were a decent number of rpots where 50-60 bucks or more was raked off a pot. At the very least I would withhold almost all toking in those pots.

I think as you move past 2/5 or 5/10 a time rake works well for the regular running games. Something like 7 bucks every half hour...8 if you give free meals or something.


Again, just my 2 cents, and ive never worked in a poker room.

A2345Razz said:

Wow, obv this would be one of the best raking structures ive seen for low and midstakes (I consider 2/5 to be a midstakes game as they play outside California/Commerce)...and an absolutely horrendous structure for high stakes.

What I suspect is true is that high stakes just isnt regular and basically the games are so irregular and juicy that people dont mind that level of rake for access to whales and high security/game integrity.

I dont think you could maintain a regular casino high stakes game where there were a decent number of rpots where 50-60 bucks or more was raked off a pot. At the very least I would withhold almost all toking in those pots.

I think as you move past 2/5 or 5/10 a time rake works well for the regular running games. Something like 7 bucks every half hour...8 if you give free meals or something.


Again, just my 2 cents, and ive never worked in a poker room.

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You are correct on the low to mid level play. Most of our 317 current members play at those levels and we have to literaly push them out the door at closing time. They, like myself love the way we have structured our rake. It keeps the games going longer and longer with the house turning a good profit.

As for the upper level of play you are also correct. It is a strong rake to say the least but as you said nobody cares if the rake is 5% because the pots are normally huge. For example, our largest pot on record to date at the lodge for a 100/200 NL is $74,000............lol..........that guy was happy to pay the rake to say the least.

One of the reasons we got busted the last time was the amount of money that was being moved. Some people in our local law enforcement got wise (as you can imagine) and now we have to .........lol.........well.....lets just say we pay them a rake..lol. But all is good now.

I think the lodge will be safe for at least another four years as that is when the chief of police here where I live is up for re-election. If he loses we will most likely be shut down again. If he gets elected for another term then our game will continue to be safe even longer.

As for our comps. We comp catered food, drinks, sleeping quarters (hardly ever gets used) and some comps I cannot mention here......lol. Not to mention once a year we give away a new car to the clubs leading chip earner. This past year it was a 2012 mustang GT.

Another thing....most important to high stakes players is our security and game integrity. It is top notch. As good if not better than most casinos. Since we now have the (paid for against our will so to speak) in house police patrol on high stakes nite. Five police officers walk the floor, we have one person not counting the dealer watching each table and then the govenor of club in what we call the watch box that is watching everyone........very similar to what you would see at a casino except here there are no taxes etc...etc.....that eat your winnings for lunch.

Rake

BTW, I'm called the rake at our club not because of my poker skills but because I'm the accountant for the lodge/poker club. Part of my job is to collect yearly membership dues.....etc..........the nickname fits in that situation as you can imagine.

May your ACES run wild in 2013.