Possible collusion at Bovada?

or3o1990

or3o1990

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Hey guys, I've been dealing with some weirdness at the $28 triple up sng's.

It starts in the lobby, I'm noticing that sometimes 2 or 3 people joining a table at the same time. I've also seen 2 or 3 players change their mind and exit the lobby at the same time as well. Also, I'm the first person to join the lobbies a lot of the times and multiple times one night players were opting to join the empty lobby rather than the one I'm in? This all seems fishy to me. What do you think?

The play doesn't seem to be out of line in the early stages, of course I'm not sure what to be looking for. The out of line play begins on the bubble. It isn't always a weird bubble but sometimes it's questionable. Sometimes it seems clear that players are avoiding one another and in weird ways. Like big stacks refusing to put pressure on small stacks and I'm talking a 7k stack vs 1200, it makes no sense. Now that is not to say that not making sense means they're colluding, they are probably just terrible players tbh.

But tonight something didn't make sense. It was like the table had a rhythm. The same thing kept happening over and over. The three players left were playing so passively against each other it was stupid. If I didn't have my chat disabled I would be talking to much crap to these retards. But the most annoying part was the fact that the player on my right was ruthlessly aggressive on my blinds. He was shoving every single time he was in the small without pause. In a way that was so untactful it just didn't make sense. I mean I knew he had shit most of the time because he wasn't even mixing it up at all. I eventually called him with KK and went on to get my cash but that's besides the point.

I'm made a note to go over that tournament and took pics of the tourney number and players or whatever just in case it looks as bad as I remember. If it indeed does I'm going to contact bovada but I doubt they'll do much, idk. Really I just wanted some opinions because things aren't always what they seem, there's a lot of stupid people out there and I could be giving them too much credit.
 
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peowulf

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I think you should contact Bovada's support and send them the game's logs to analyze it themselves. Something similar happened to me at pokerstars, I don't remember the details because it was many years ago, but support agreed that there was collusion between two players (it was a double or nothing sng and I lost at the bubble), they banned them from the site and give me the prize money, they even thanked me for reporting this.

I don't know what Bovada's stance on collusion is, but if you suspect foul play you should report it, nothing wrong with presenting your case in a polite manner.
 
enolan

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Defo report. I think S&Gs are the most susceptable form for collusion and I'm sure all reputable sites have good checks in place to monitor potential problems.

I do think the site would appriciate an educated lead on possible cases so let them know.

If you see three players playing same table S&Gs on a regular basis then that's enough for an investigation. For the site, it should be a trivial matter to establish if this happens at a suspiciously high frequency and then to investgate the game play if required.

There is a high degree of implicit collusion with S&Gs (particularly Double or Triple ups), which is a legitimate part of the game so the site may not see anything wrong with the actual play at the table. But it does sound worth a review to me.
 
or3o1990

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it's so hard to confidently say one or the other. I reviewed the tournament in question and even though it was very weird it wasn't enough for me to say for sure they were colluding.. I was just going to forget about it. With this anonymous setup it's impossible to know for sure..
 
cjmoles

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it's so hard to confidently say one or the other. I reviewed the tournament in question and even though it was very weird it wasn't enough for me to say for sure they were colluding.. I was just going to forget about it. With this anonymous setup it's impossible to know for sure..
That's why I don't play at Bovada anymore....the anonymous players....one knows that they're colluding but can't prove it and that's why the colluders play at Bovada! Ask this: Do colluders exist. If the answer is yes, ask this: If I were a colluder, where would I play?

DON's are the very easiest games for colluders to make profit, so don't play the Double (or Triple) or Nothings at Bovada unless you also have your own "team!" Capeesh? You may bink a few DON's out now and then, but they'll scrape you in the long run, unless you have your own "team!" It is common knowledge that if you play the DON's for profit at Bovada, you better be on a team. And, keep your eye on the Russians when you play everywhere else....LOL
 
or3o1990

or3o1990

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That's why I don't play at Bovada anymore....the anonymous players....one knows that they're colluding but can't prove it and that's why the colluders play at Bovada! Ask this: Do colluders exist. If the answer is yes, ask this: If I were a colluder, where would I play?

DON's are the very easiest games for colluders to make profit, so don't play the Double (or Triple) or Nothings at Bovada unless you also have your own "team!" Capeesh? You may bink a few DON's out now and then, but they'll scrape you in the long run, unless you have your own "team!" It is common knowledge that if you play the DON's for profit at Bovada, you better be on a team. And, keep your eye on the Russians when you play everywhere else....LOL

Your first paragraph hits the nail on the head.. its a serious concern i have because i grind the triple ups. And for awhile only 30 dollar triple ups. I hate to be a nance and complain and question the fairness of online poker but ive seen some fishiness for sure but many act as if its impossible for it to be unfair in anyway.

But to be honest I still win, not as much as I'd like to all of the time and i definitely do not have a team lol. I question what it could be doing to my roi% if i am up against teams more often than not, idk.

Im not sure of what kind of edge one would really gain as a team? Most of that edge would have to be at the bubble if its anywhere.. most of the players i see play so poorly early on that im not sure 3 colluders would make the bubble with any consistency? Seems more likely that having a team and sharing funds is more likely to lessen variance than give a significant edge. That may be inaccurate though im not sure how to calculate the edge one would gain playing this way idk..

And thanks for the tip, if i ever get to play on stars again ill keep my eyes peeled for Russians lol. Lets not forget about the Germans lol, they seem to know what theyre doing now a days haha.
 
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Ray Sliva

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play by play

I am not sure I would know who was colluding or not. I figure that they reconize me as a weak player and would rather eliminate me than have me sux out on them. lol. I really feel it is a strategy by a collected growing group of players to lessen the field. The patterns do seems to appear more on one site than some of the others. Maybe I need to be a better player. see ya at the tables.
 
WVHillbilly

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It's impossible for you to know for sure, but Bovada can track those anon IDs and see if it's a pattern for the players involved or just coincidence. I'd report your suspicions and let them deal with it.
 
or3o1990

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I am not sure I would know who was colluding or not. I figure that they reconize me as a weak player and would rather eliminate me than have me sux out on them. lol. I really feel it is a strategy by a collected growing group of players to lessen the field. The patterns do seems to appear more on one site than some of the others. Maybe I need to be a better player. see ya at the tables.

Its almost impossible. Sometimes it seems like players are avoiding one another but its nearly impossible to tell and would be impossible to prove.
 
Michael Paler

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I used to think that Bovada's anonymous player names were great, but that is only for MTT's - and even then, you have the table number, your player number, it can still be done once you realize your buddy is on the same table.

It becomes pointless for any SNG. While you can keep your eyes open, the simple fact is even if you complain, it is still up to Bovada to investigate. And how many false accusations do you think they get every day by angry bad players? I would think it's alot. So much so that you have to wonder just how close they look or how many man hours they can devote to it. Then there are the employees investigating it - how many false accusations before they go "collusion blind"? So, unless the people doing it are sooooo obvious, it's going to be hard to see or prove.

Remember in the past how many accusations had to made before a site would admit it happened? It's very bad for business. Also, if it's a low buy in...well, you get the point.

The simple fact is that there is no way you can possibly stop colluding online. While the site prides itself on finding multi-users, they cannot possibly know who is in contact (by phone, text, etc) with each other. Frankly, I think it's the industry's dirty little secret. About your best option is to get the game history and have it reviewed. Patterns can be detected. For example, if someone with a big stack raises 5x, another guy goes all in for 6x, and the original raiser does not call the additional 1x, it's very fishy. Even if the guy is on a stone cold bluff. If I bluff with 2-8 off for 5x and the guy shoves 6x, of course I'm calling. Anyone would. The hardest part is if several are colluding that they can tell each other what they are folding. That info alone can be incredibly useful post flop and hard to prove.

Over a long game patterns can develop - if someone gets similar hands but plays them only two ways, and the same way against the same players each time, that could be a hint. One seldom thought of item is table talk - if the conversation is missing parts (as if they are also talking in another form, via text) that can be a hint. For example, I once noticed a guy asking questions about something no one was talking about in the chat box to another player - it was very clear that he got his answer in some other form of communication with another player, whom he knew the real name of as it was not any screen name he used. This told me at least two players were in contact with each other outside the chatbox. Then again, he could have just typed it into the chat box by mistake and was not talking to an actual player at the table. See what I mean - who knows for sure?

So, good luck.
 
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I have had my share of concerns myself, but I know this:

One time I was acussed of being a bot, beacuse was kicking ass.
Another time I was accused of colluding (I bet almost a pot size bluff about 40$ with no chance of winning, the other player goes all - around 45$ bet, - only 5$+ to call) I folded, I was saving 5$ since I knew I was beat, but someone accused me of colluding. I would call only If I had showdown value, I didn't
Been accused a few times.

So I know first hand that not always it is what it seems:

What the video https://www.facebook.com/Dre1.ent/videos/10151362776965225/
 
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or3o1990

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I have had my share of concerns myself, but I know this:

One time I was acussed of being a bot, beacuse was kicking ass.
Another time I was accused of colluding (I bet almost a pot size bluff about 40$ with no chance of winning, the other player goes all - around 45$ bet, - only 5$+ to call) I folded, I was saving 5$ since I knew I was beat, but someone accused me of colluding. I would call only If I had showdown value, I didn't
Been accused a few times.

So I know first hand that not always it is what it seems:

What the video https://www.facebook.com/Dre1.ent/videos/10151362776965225/

Yeah i get what you're saying. Its pretty damn hard to tell for sure all in all. Im sure i get accused from time to time but i disable my chat so i dont have to hear it from the ass hats.

Im just trying not to think about it at this point. Because im not going to stop playing and i have no where else to play..
 
cjmoles

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Yeah i get what you're saying. Its pretty damn hard to tell for sure all in all. Im sure i get accused from time to time but i disable my chat so i dont have to hear it from the ass hats.

Im just trying not to think about it at this point. Because im not going to stop playing and i have no where else to play..

Play at America's Cardroom or Blackchip Poker (WPN Skins)...Both of them acccept US players and they're having a huge 150K freebuy promotion right now so you can try it before you buy it. They're pretty serious about paying out as fast as they possibly can too...so, their payout system is a rval to Bovadas (which is the only reason to really play at Bovada if you ask me). Think WPN's got them beat right now as far as fast payouts go...try it.
 
or3o1990

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Play at America's Cardroom or Blackchip Poker (WPN Skins)...Both of them acccept US players and they're having a huge 150K freebuy promotion right now so you can try it before you buy it. They're pretty serious about paying out as fast as they possibly can too...so, their payout system is a rval to Bovadas (which is the only reason to really play at Bovada if you ask me). Think WPN's got them beat right now as far as fast payouts go...try it.

I had never looked into ACR but I thought it was NJ only. I was thinking of trying carbon but someone said that they've been having withdrawl issues lately so I'm staying away. I'll give ACR a shot though..
 
ScooperNova

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Collusion has been rampant on Bovada since the inception of player anonymity. It's just common sense.
 
cjmoles

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WPN's, America's Cardroom is the best site, right now, for players in the USA.....Hands Down! One doesn't have to worry about collusion, one can keep stats on who one's playing, and one can take advantage of very generous promotions and fast payouts! It's not even a close race between the two! Only advantage Bovada might have is its traffic, but WPN's traffic is increasing at a very good clip!
 
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or3o1990

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Yeah. Im gonna give acr a shot. Im a bit of a procrastinator sometimes but ill make a deposit eventually lol.
 
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donkcentralFF

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WPN's, America's Cardroom is the best site, right now, for players in the USA.....Hands Down! One doesn't have to worry about collusion, one can keep stats on who one's playing, and one can take advantage of very generous promotions and fast payouts! It's not even a close race between the two! Only advantage Bovada might have is its traffic, but WPN's traffic is increasing at a very good clip!
Idk if they give you some bonus 2 promote their site, but their not even close in terms of traffic and the mtts/sngs are way better at bovada... + they run like every hour.. ACR has a long way to go before claiming to be on the bovada level.. The only thing ACR has is the userid benefit... If ACR was even close to Bovada in traffic or profits they wouldn't be running this huge freeroll promo right now..:deal:
 
or3o1990

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Collusion has been rampant on Bovada since the inception of player anonymity. It's just common sense.

yeah, I guess I may be lacking in the common sense department because I've been putting in a lot of hours in their SNG's. Up until a couple months ago it didn't seem like it was happening as frequently. Since the traffic has slowed lately it's become almost unavoidable.

I've downloaded ACR but haven't made a deposit. I've just been checking out the lobby. The traffic seems quite low but what are ya gonna do?
 
or3o1990

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Idk if they give you some bonus 2 promote their site, but their not even close in terms of traffic and the mtts/sngs are way better at bovada... + they run like every hour.. ACR has a long way to go before claiming to be on the bovada level.. The only thing ACR has is the userid benefit... If ACR was even close to Bovada in traffic or profits they wouldn't be running this huge freeroll promo right now..:deal:

yeah, I just downloaded it and I'm just looking through the lobby now. Seems like slim pickings..
 
or3o1990

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I've also emailed Bovada about the colluders. I doubt they're going to do anything but I think I'm done with the SNG's and cash games there until the traffic picks back up in the winter..
 
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I tried to cashout 2000 out of ARC i had the hardest time, and the a great frustration, customer service is out of touch (since it outsourced), and just plain - they dont care really about customers they just do their job regardles off customer satisfaction when it comes to cashout, (when is deposit a whole different story, you dont have to verify anything)

Anyways when I tried to cashout in ARC they asked for like 10 different things including cards that I used years ago (which are long expired, and trashed), I had a hard time because I had already spoken to a customer rep and next it was another one and it was a start over, long story short I was tilted for the customer service alone and I lost the 2k before I was able to cashout.

I have since gone through all the bullshit requirements and validated my account fully certified, but why they didnt ask for anything when I deposit in the first place?

Hopefully from now on they start giving me less hassle that I have certifined my account, however that doesnt give me my 2k back, mother*kers :(
 
ScooperNova

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I tried to cashout 2000 out of ARC i had the hardest time, and the a great frustration, customer service is out of touch (since it outsourced), and just plain - they dont care really about customers they just do their job regardles off customer satisfaction when it comes to cashout, (when is deposit a whole different story, you dont have to verify anything)

Anyways when I tried to cashout in ARC they asked for like 10 different things including cards that I used years ago (which are long expired, and trashed), I had a hard time because I had already spoken to a customer rep and next it was another one and it was a start over, long story short I was tilted for the customer service alone and I lost the 2k before I was able to cashout.

I have since gone through all the bullshit requirements and validated my account fully certified, but why they didnt ask for anything when I deposit in the first place?

Hopefully from now on they start giving me less hassle that I have certifined my account, however that doesnt give me my 2k back, mother*kers :(

It seems like they play games with me on cash outs as well. My only two have been nightmares. I haven't even got the second one yet.
 
or3o1990

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It seems like they play games with me on cash outs as well. My only two have been nightmares. I haven't even got the second one yet.

This is not giving me any confidence in ACR. I just want to play poker like a civilized human being, is that too much to ask?

The correspondence between Bovada's customer service and myself has been laughable. The pretty much want me to find the players colluding on my own and hand the information over to them before they intend to look into it at all.. I've paid 8k in rake this year and they want me to do their jobs for them.. smh
 
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If I'm not mistaking, you can look at the hand history for all players on bovada after 24 hours. It would be interesting to take a look if it seems like they are playing as a team.
 
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