PLaying AK and Big Hands

I have a question about AK (suited or not). All
the books treat AK as a big hand and advise
raising preflop with it. I do this as advised,
usually raising 4 or 5 times the BB.

However, the maths being what they are, most of
the time I miss the flop and I'm looking at
absolutely nothing. Shoud I carry on betting big
as if I've hit something, and if so do I bet the
flop and turn, or just bail out after gettting one
call? It doesn't feel good betting when you know a
pair of twos has you beat.

As with most decisions in poker, it depends.

Some factor which influence whether to continuation bet are:

- The number of players in the pot. You're more likely to take the pot down with a c-bet against one other player than four others, obviously.

- The style of the other player(s) in the pot. A weak-tight player is more likely to fold to a c-bet than a calling station.

- Whether you have any draws. Better draws mean more outs mean you're still not in bad shape if your c-bet gets called.

- The flop. Is someone more likely to have a hand they'll want to continue playing with on a QhJh9s board or a 3h3s5c board?

#1: what dorkus said.
#2: The style i play, (tight aggressive), players give me enough respect for a hand that if i have AK, it's sure to be a heads up pot, or maybe 3-way.
Either way, if they are both weak players, and are calling my raise, then i've put them on either a small pocket pair (not strong enough to reraise with, but they'll see a flop), or two cards, hoping to hit them (usually big cards, but donks do call with T5s type hands - ).
So generally, i will put out a c-bet like dorkus said (or continuation bet) to either represent AA, KK etc or a piece of the flop. Most of the time, for me, this will take the pot down.
If not, and my opponent calls me, I then have to re-evaluate. Why are they calling (slowplay? did they hit? maybe drawing? maybe calling down with A-high?), i then act accordingly to my read. Your read has to be strong on them, or you could be losing alot of money
Also, to repeat what chris said, I will never C-bet if i get more then 3 callers if i don't hit, because odds are that one of them has hit a piece of the flop and will call me down. Neither will I c-bet a calling station if i haven't hit the flop because its just plain pointless.

ok i'm rambling a bit here, but basically you want to raise PF to sweeten the pot and to isolate, then c-bet the flop (conditionally of course)

Another thing i forgot:
Doyle B. in SS2 says that he likes AK better than AA for certain reasons:
#1 generally you will win small pots, but lose big ones with AA because it's harder to get away from
#2 When you see a flop with AK, it's either hit or miss. If you hit, then bet or raise. If you miss, then it's easy to muck.
Though ive gotta say i've seen some people hold on to AK like it's gold...AK is nothing, unless you've hit the board. Let it go if the flop doesn't bring any help.

premium ace hands are overrated in online poker mainly to do with all the tight aggressive e books that every idiot and his dog reads and thinks its a winning strategy that will take them to the world series. in actual fact this is very far from the truth.

raising 4-5 times pre flop with AK is NOT good. let me explain the best way to play them and methodology behind this.

1. if someone before you raises just call.

why?

simply because it is not worth getting into uneeded confrontations with a re raise. see a flop and then go from there. so many people live and die by AK and premium ace hands. i see countless people bust out of tournaments and cash games pre flop with these hands and there really is no need for it pre flop.

2. only raise 3 times BB pre flop

why?

because AK isn't statistically as good a hand as its made out to be. its only a great hand if it hits but the probability of it hitting is the same as the probability of 2 7 offsuit hitting. if it doesn't hit, its just another two cards. on the flop you have a 30% chance of hitting with 2 live cards. yes this number increases by the river. but it is foolish to continue to keep paying for cards that there is a high chance wont come - i see so many people lose so much with premium ace hands and it just isn't worth it. i love these people.

the reason for the 3 times BB raise is that it is above 60% of the sum to call. therefore psychologically if you dont have a good hand, you wont call the raise [this isn't typical of micro limit games but again those games aren't really poker] therefore you save yourself money if it doesn't hit by not raising the bigger sum of 4 or 5 times the BB.

another reason for only betting 3 times the BB is that you are less likely to become pot commited with a smaller bet and will be able to let it go alot easier after only raising pre flop 3 times the BB.

raising 3 times the BB does exactly what it needs to do in being high enough a bet to eliminate ace rag callers. ace rag hands are the most feared hand for AK because if an ace comes on the board and ace rag makes two pair, this is a situation that can potentially cost you alot of money.

3. nearly always make a continuation bet. unless there are more than 3 people in the hand. [which is unlikely due to the raise]

why?

because you've shown strength before the flop, show it on the flop. regardless of the calls. the bet you should make here is a pot sized bet. this will show any potential callers that you aren't letting go and will continue to bet out hard. if they havent got a good hand on the flop. its gonna cost them money to make one.

note an added advantage to the 3 times BB raise here. the pot sized continuation bet will cost you less if you haven't hit because you never raised as much pre flop.

hopefully everyone here will fold if they dont, they have a hand at least. check the turn if out of position and if they bet be prepared to let the hand go if you haven't hit. dont cost yourself anymore money chasing. you tried with a good hand and it never came off. wait till next time and fold.

4. if you do hit be VERY AGGRESSIVE

why?

because top pair is only a pair. dont let people in to hit sets, straights, flushes etc. get them to fold asap. dont mess around with silly little luring bets hoping to get a nice pot at a showdown. bet the pot on the flop, turn and river and get them out of the hand. do not slow play AK if it hits!

5. raising 4 or 5 times the BB is a dangerous and costly play.

why?

because you are always likely to get a caller in late position who will be looking to outplay you - whatever your raise. good players know that theres only a 30% chance you will hit the flop and therefore will play almost any hand to try and take you out if you aren't aggressive enough. 4 or 5 times the BB is aggressive enough but it is also at most levels significant to your stack size. therefore its a risky, costly move if it doesn't pay off. espiecially since you will have to at least double that bet again with a continuation bet. again even with this level of aggression. if the flop looks lousy people will call and hope to outplay you when you check and eventually concede you've missed the flop. so raise 3 times BB and limit your costs in the longrun.

the overall best reason to raise 3 times the BB is however this:

3 times BB raises basically send the message that you have a good not super strength hand. therefore when you make big continuation bets - they are more believable. because you have showed some strength pre flop and the continuation bet is a believable indication that you've then hit. you raised holding perhaps middle pocket pair for example and made a set - people are much more likely to respect controlled aggression rather than textbook aggression.

good luck at the tables guys. hope you found that explanation interesting!

I strongly agree with just about everything allsop stated about AK. I've never been a huge fan of 5x BB bets with this hand.

As luck would have it, I'm in an SnG tournament right now, and just as I went to post this reply, someone went all-in with AK hearts pre-flop and was called and beat by KK.

EDIT: Same tourney, another AK went all-in PF and got beat, this time by 66.

I won't lie, it took a me a long time to fully understand the importance of this concept. I am a very tight/aggressive player who does not like to commit chips to the pot unless I know that my chances for success are high. I used to just limp in with these hands, and while I had moderate success playing this way, my top pair was often getting beaten by low 2 pairs because I was not betting aggressive preflop. Like I said, I am a tight/aggressive player, but I was waiting until too late to bet aggressive to protect my hand.

The entire purpose for raising aggressively pre flop is so that you can isolate your opponents. If you are able to limit the number of callers to 1 or 2, then you are also decreasing the ammount of hands that can beat you. Plus, by raising aggressively pre flop, you are representing that you already have a strong hand, and it will make people more cautious about betting into you, giving you more bluff opportunities (especially if the table is already aware that you only play premium starting hands).

Scenario 1
Lets say you are holding AK. You raised 4 times the bb and got one caller. Here comes the flop, and it is a relatively weak board with 2,6,10 hitting on the flop. You are second to act and your opponent makes the tables minimum bet. This bet would represent that your opponent has at least hit a portion of the flop and is trying to take the pot down. What do you do? You raise your opponent to a pot sized continuation bet. By raising to a pot sized bet, you are reminding your opponent that you started with a strong hand, and now you are representing that you flopped a set. He will either fold here, or call. If he calls, he either flopped a set or hit top pair. In either circumstance, you get to see another card. If you hit either of your cards, then you are most likely in good position for the rest of the hand. If you don't hit either of your cards and he bets out, then you should fold.

Scenario 2
You are holding the same AK and made the same 4 times bb preflop raise and had one caller. The flop comes Q,10,6. This is a scary board against your AK, but I would still make a pot sized bet to see if you can take the pot down. If he calls, then you get a card to see if you hit your straight. If he reraises, I would get out of the hand.

Still very knew to this and last night was playing the party 500 freeroll, down to less than a 100 people caught a Ace-king suited raised 5x bb, next person raised it all in and another person called. I called,and ended up loosing to a QQ when no cards flooped. Did I play this right. Trying to play the tight aggressive ChuckT game. The other person had a AQ, I finished 73 last night out of 12k. If I would have won that hand I would have been top 5 in the chips.

If I'm sitting with AK suited and I see an all-in reraise after my 5x bb and then a caller, I'm going to get out of the way and let them two fight it out.

That's prbly what I should have done with hindsight being 20/20. It is hard to lay down a monster hand preflop though.

Yeah, an all-in reraise like that one will very often represent AA or KK. If you're AK you sure as hell don't want to be up against AA and you're easily an underdog against KK. Any lower pocket pair and you're pretty much flipping coins. Even when you're up against a non-PP, you have to remember the idea this topic has reinforced that AK is just another high hand if it doesn't pair, and fish will often call and beat you with QJ or lower.

What monster hand?

bellhead1970 said:

That's prbly what I should have done with hindsight being 20/20. It is hard to lay down a monster hand preflop though.

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AK-suited is NOT a monster hand when there is an allin reraise and a caller ahead of you! Fold that sucker and let the real beasts duke it out.

Coryan said:

AK-suited is NOT a monster hand when there is an allin reraise and a caller ahead of you! Fold that sucker and let the real beasts duke it out.

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Depending on the game or level. If you are in the late stages of an MTT, people will go all-in on anything when shortstacked or even just to buy some blinds. Not a bad idea to call. Also, on the micro limits, most people are going all in with j-Q offsuit, or 4-8 suited. You are usually the favourite with A-K suited in these situations 99% of the time.

Allsopp's Guide to Playing AK

Allsopp said:

premium ace hands are overrated in online poker mainly to do with all the tight aggressive e books that every idiot and his dog reads and thinks its a winning strategy that will take them to the world series. in actual fact this is very far from the truth.

raising 4-5 times pre flop with AK is NOT good. let me explain the best way to play them and methodology behind this.

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Wow, maybe you should write a book since all the fools authoring poker books don't know the "best way to play" AK hands. My apologies to Helmuth, Brunson, Greenstein, Gordon and the many other fools.

Allsopp said:

1. if someone before you raises just call.

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That's one way to play it. But I have done quite well reraising my AK about 50% of the time. It give me much more information about the strength of my opponent's hand (which I really need when I flop a pair of Kings) and it puts me in a strong position after the flop. But passively calling with your AK before the flop is another option.

Allsopp said:

2. only raise 3 times BB pre flop...the reason for the 3 times BB raise is that it is above 60% of the sum to call...therefore you save yourself money if it doesn't hit by not raising the bigger sum of 4 or 5 times the BB...3 times BB raises basically send the message that you have a good not super strength hand. therefore when you make big continuation bets - they are more believable.

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So, since you stated it no less than seven times in your post...the perfect preflop raise with AK is 3XBB...not 4X, not 2X. And I assume that this is the case regardless of your position, how many have limped in ahead of you or the type of opponent you are up against.

Well, I'm gonna venture to disagree with you on this one. First, I don't believe that there is any perfect raise for any hand. The idea that there is some "60% of the sum to call" threshold just doesn't make sense to me. Preflop calling thresholds vary significantly from table to table. The idea that 3XBB sends "the message that you have a good not super strength hand" assumes that your opponent's have an awesome read on your preflop raises or that there is some universal understanding of what a 3XBB preflop raise indicates. I would again have to disagree with both presumptions.

Personally, if I make a preflop raise, 90% of the time it will be 4XBB regardless of the hand that I am holding. I don't want my opponent to get any read on my hand. I want my AA to look just like my QJs preflop. I only vary my preflop raises for reasons related to position and number of players already in ahead of me.

Sorry, I just don't buy the idea that a 3XBB raise preflop is the ideal formula for playing AK. If it works for you...great. But I think your arguments leave much to be desired.

BTW, I look forward to reading your book.

gord962 said:

Depending on the game or level. If you are in the late stages of an MTT, people will go all-in on anything when shortstacked or even just to buy some blinds. Not a bad idea to call. Also, on the micro limits, most people are going all in with j-Q offsuit, or 4-8 suited. You are usually the favourite with A-K suited in these situations 99% of the time.

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I would agree if the allins were from shortstacks or if I had a shortstack. But I personally do not think it is wise to jump into a three-way allin with AK. There is a decent chance with an allin RR and a caller than one of those hands has you dominated.

But let's assume your example of QJo and 84s...even then you will only win the hand 42% of the time with your AK favorite. So, the odds to gamble here are slightly in your favor since you are only contributing 33% of the chips...but it is definately not a dominate advantage. More importantly, this only works when we know that our hand is better. Again, I would argue that an allin reraise and a call say that there is a good chance that our hand is not the favorite. I think your assessment that we are the favorite "99% of the time" with incredibly (and incorrectly) optimistic.

Bellhead was not yet in the money and he took a big gamble making that call. This is not a gamble I would make unless I thought both the allin and caller were desperate OR if I was desperate (ie. shortstacked).

I have ace king and bet 4x the big blind and get a caller. ( 1/2 blinds) I was not quite sure on his hand he was playing fairly tight and had only seen a few flops. The flop came 8 4 2. ( I can remember the suits.) HE bet 10$ 5x the big blind. I was sure he was bluffing and called him. the next card was an ace. He checked I bet 10 and he called. The final card was a 3. he bet 10 and I called thinking he had a small pair. He shows 3 2 and takes the pot with 2 pair. Was it him simply getting lucky or a bad sequence by me?

had i not seen those results, i would have said bad play by you calling his flop bet.(no offence, chern, just constructive criticism here )
If a player was playin tight, and had seen very few flops, then comes out betting - WATCH OUT!
that means that they probably have a solid hand.
His pocket cards pretty much counter what i just said, but most of the time, tight = small hand selection, which means keep out of their way.

given you were "sure" that he was bluffing (i actually put him on a set here before seeing the results), i would have bet a whole lot more on the turn when you hit your ace.
Turn = 36$ pot, and a $10 bet is very weak. Bet at least half, or 2/3 the pot to turn him off any piece of the flop he hit.

Chuck is absolutely correct with his advisings of betting stronger when you hit. An example of this that I have takes place at a Prima FR on friday. I was the BB, so I limped in with JcKc. The flop comes up as Jd2h3c. Checks all around to me, so I raise to 2x BB, and everyone folds except one caller. Turn is Kh, and the caller checks to me, and I push all-in. He calls and shows pocket Jacks. I was screaming explitives in my head, knowing I was outdrawn. The river comes up Kd, and I win the pot, crippling his stack. He went crazy on the chat, but said nice hand. He then told me he knew it was his fault for losing, he said he should have raised PF. I told him that in all honesty if he bet a strong amount after the flop, I would have folded, with only a pair. Instances like these remind me, with PP, ALWAYS raise PF. If you hit your set, raise. What will it hurt? If everyone folds, you win the pot. Truly a win-win. Don't be afraid of everyne folding, if they do, you win anyway. People get lucky ALL THE TIME. Even the pros. So fliter out the chasers by raising when you hit.

Where, oh where, has my slowplaying gone?

I have noticed that since I started playing NL cash games I have become much tighter and much more aggressive after the flop. I almost never SP a hand. Honestly, everytime I flop a pair, set or hand less than a FH, I seem to have a fear that my opponent will outdraw me. So I bet out on nearly every flop...either with a good hand or a continuation bet.

It seems to be working for me. My opponents never know if I have the hand or am just making the C-bet. I don't mind that a lot of hands are folded to me on the flop with only modest pots...at least I didn't lose a big one to a suckout!

Now it seems that nearly all my bad beats are on allin situations. Since I play my good hands aggressively with almost no slowplaying, I am more likely to be allin than to have someone calling me to the river on a draw.

So, all of this to say I agree with ChuckT and JessieBear...play your hands aggressively to make the draws pay. Less than a 1/2 pot bet is begging for a call.