The J Little and ACR Fiasco

AndyGamesPoker

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ACR ban's Little. What is going on? Anyone who has a poker Twitter account I am sure has caught wind of this. Is it a wise business move from ACR? Not in my opinion, J little always urged caution when putting money on unregulated sites but never said not to play on them. Will be interesting to see how things work out. One thing is certain, I am very lucky to live somewhere that I have nearly unlimited poker site selection, and at times like these I feel for my poker brothers and sisters that don't.

What do you all think about this situation?
 
BUSB0Y

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1. Phil spends massive amount of time/energy to attract a lot of bad players.
2. JL likes this part of the site and takes advantage, while subtly and often not so subtly digging at ACR/Nagy.
3. You poke a bear long enough he's gonna say "**** it you're too annoying."

On another note, regarding "unregulated" sites being more risky-- while this is true, track record speaks a lot, for companies and people-- and ACR has been around since the early 2000's, just doing what they do, dealing cards and trying to please the players. This is in stark contrast to what I've seen on other sites, where profit and rake is #1. I think ACR gets it right bc they understand that if they make the players happy (or at least content) then the profits will keep flowing.

Other sites keep getting it wrong, 1st catering to pros, then casuals, alienating one or the other, while ACR tries to keep a happy medium.

Is their software the best? Nope. But in the couple of years I've played there, although it goes down, it usually happens during peak traffic hours, generally Sundays.

Since I don't play peak times anymore, I have not personally experienced the site going down, and would be willing to bet it has over 99% uptime.

Should we demand perfection? Sure.

But before you rip a site apart for going down during it's most trafficked periods, imagine if they weren't around, and your best options were unknown, low trafficked sites-- with 100% working software, of course.
 
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fundiver199

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Pretty idiotic move by ACR. This will do nothing good for their reputation, and I will certainly be less likely to ever deposit money in my account there and start using it.
 
BUSB0Y

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Pretty idiotic move by ACR. This will do nothing good for their reputation, and I will certainly be less likely to ever deposit money in my account there and start using it.


Yup, I can see how this is the objective view, especially from outsiders that have not yet deposited on the site. At first too, this was my initial reaction. Like, "why in the hell would you ban a guy who's bringing you customers regardless of what he's saying?"

It may well be a very bad decision in regards to revenue and profits.

Though it's my opinion, I don't think Phil made the decision hastily. I know he weighed the pros and cons. He knows JL has a lot of support and a big fan base. Nagy knows this will lose money for him.

He did it anyways.

For outsiders who don't play on the site, perhaps this causes further alienation. And that's probably okay with him.

I personally have more respect for Phil Nagy after he made this move. To me, it says that short-term money isn't always going to be the most important factor in his decision-making process.

That being said, and while this may sound contradictory, perhaps banning JL IS the best money-making move, long-term.

I mean, JL's real message was that "this site is shady, be careful." So, while he may have pulled a lot of customers, the underlying message is still being broadcast, while JL gets more and more popular.

In the end, JL will become more and more popular while yelling the same message. And this will continue. So maybe it is wise to stop him now, even though he's generating income.

And, ACR is probably safer than a U.S. bank-- they hold BTC which is increasing in value. You forget that WAMU got sold to CHASE and BofA needed a bailout a while back.
 
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spr0ck3t

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Jonathan Little Banned from ACR

Per his twitter:

I got banned from ACR for making my students aware of the potential risks of playing on an unlicensed/unregulated site.

While I would obviously love to continue playing on a site that has a lot of soft tournaments, know that I will always do my best to speak the truth, even if it is not good for me personally.

My job is to help my students make more money (and not get scammed out of their money) from poker and I will continue doing my best to help my students.

Despite me frequently speaking critically about ACR (which is now a ban-worthy offense), they cashed out the $19,000 that was in my account. Thanks for not robbing me!
I went down a bit of a rabbit hole and it seems like Jonathan and the CEO of WPN, Phillip Nagy, have some history - Jonathan has been pretty adamant about not keeping large amounts of cash on unregulated sites since black friday, but has maybe been a bit... forceful about it.

Nagy responded:

It’s one thing if you’re going to treat WPN like some side chick. But I’ll be damned if I’m going to give you the privilege of getting to f**k me on the daily if you’re going to punch me in the head while doing it.
While WPN can refuse service to anyone they want, I think I'm probably not alone in saying Nagy's response is a bad look.


Edit : I posted this in 'poker news', didn't see a thread there / know to check this subforum. Sorry!
 
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okeedokalee

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I'm a fan of ACR. I also respect J.Little. What is going on. Is this a personal beef between Little and Nagy.
Meanwhile I will continue to enjoy what ACR offers to it's participants.
 
BUSB0Y

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Per his twitter:

I went down a bit of a rabbit hole and it seems like Jonathan and the CEO of WPN, Phillip Nagy, have some history - Jonathan has been pretty adamant about not keeping large amounts of cash on unregulated sites since black friday, but has maybe been a bit... forceful about it.

Nagy responded:

While WPN can refuse service to anyone they want, I think I'm probably not alone in saying Nagy's response is a bad look.


Edit : I posted this in 'poker news', didn't see a thread there / know to check this subforum. Sorry!


There's a lot more history than what the 2 have said to each other after the ban. If you spend a little time to watch clips of things JL has said, Nagy's decision might look less idiotic and make more sense.
 
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fundiver199

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Yup, I can see how this is the objective view, especially from outsiders that have not yet deposited on the site. At first too, this was my initial reaction. Like, "why in the hell would you ban a guy who's bringing you customers regardless of what he's saying?"

It may well be a very bad decision in regards to revenue and profits.

Though it's my opinion, I don't think Phil made the decision hastily. I know he weighed the pros and cons. He knows JL has a lot of support and a big fan base. Nagy knows this will lose money for him.

He did it anyways.

For outsiders who don't play on the site, perhaps this causes further alienation. And that's probably okay with him.

I personally have more respect for Phil Nagy after he made this move. To me, it says that short-term money isn't always going to be the most important factor in his decision-making process.

That being said, and while this may sound contradictory, perhaps banning JL IS the best money-making move, long-term.

I mean, JL's real message was that "this site is shady, be careful." So, while he may have pulled a lot of customers, the underlying message is still being broadcast, while JL gets more and more popular.

In the end, JL will become more and more popular while yelling the same message. And this will continue. So maybe it is wise to stop him now, even though he's generating income.

And, ACR is probably safer than a U.S. bank-- they hold BTC which is increasing in value. You forget that WAMU got sold to CHASE and BofA needed a bailout a while back.

To me this just confirm, that Phil Naga is extremely juvenily and frankly untrustworthy. I remember seeing an old video on Youtube, think it was maybe the Joe Ingram interview about bot issues, and I was like "WTF is that a CEO????" If he was a used car salesman, then I would run not walk from his place, lets just put it like that :)

And as for the subject of the debate, "is it safe to have money deposited on unregulated poker sites", of course its not safe. Its common sense. You dont even know, if player funds are available, should a large percentage want to withdraw them at the same time, like what happened on full tilt poker. There is no government oversight, and its fundamentally an illegal business.

Even on regulated sites like pokerstars its not safe. They can go bankrupt, and they can also decide to just confiscate your funds basically at their own discretion. They can always find some part of the TOS, which in their opinion you broke, and as a player you are totally defenseless against that. You can not go to the court and file a case, as you could against any other kind of business.

Jonathan Little is not warning recreational players against having a 3 or 4 figure amount sitting on a poker site. He is talking about professional player, who play for real money like a 5 or 6 figure amount. And of course you need to protect that kind of money. The only reason, why most other streamers dont talk about this is, that they are being paid by one of the poker sites for doing advertising.
 
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To me this just confirm, that Phil Naga is extremely juvenily and frankly untrustworthy. I remember seeing an old video on Youtube, think it was maybe the Joe Ingram interview about bot issues, and I was like "WTF is that a CEO????" If he was a used car salesman, then I would run not walk from his place, lets just put it like that :)

And as for the subject of the debate, "is it safe to have money deposited on unregulated poker sites", of course its not safe. Its common sense. You dont even know, if player funds are available, should a large percentage want to withdraw them at the same time, like what happened on Full Tilt poker. There is no government oversight, and its fundamentally an illegal business.

Even on regulated sites like PokerStars its not safe. They can go bankrupt, and they can also decide to just confiscate your funds basically at their own discretion. They can always find some part of the TOS, which in their opinion you broke, and as a player you are totally defenseless against that. You can not go to the court and file a case, as you could against any other kind of business.

Jonathan Little is not warning recreational players against having a 3 or 4 figure amount sitting on a poker site. He is talking about professional player, who play for real money like a 5 or 6 figure amount. And of course you need to protect that kind of money. The only reason, why most other streamers dont talk about this is, that they are being paid by one of the poker sites for doing advertising.


Yea I think everything you say is valid-- except that Nagy is untrustworthy-- the juvenile part, sure. He does come through with everything he says he will do, and ACR is known for always paying out.

"Warning" people is fine and commendable. But taken to the extreme, the way JL is/was doing it, appears to be an obvious attempt to inflict damage. It went well beyond a "warning." His words and actions (from the few clips I saw, I've never seen the guy stream) appeared to be actively trying to get people to stay away from the site and not deposit.

There is a scenario or two where your money IS actually safer on ACR. Say you have creditors who have a legal judgment against you and can access your bank accounts. At that point it's either under your mattress or somewhere else.

But yea online gaming with real money is a risk and the advice not to keep too much money on sites shouldn't even have to be said-- so if you're saying it every day over and over again, seems like overkill from someone with an agenda (to me at least).
 
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I'm a fan of ACR. I also respect J.Little. What is going on. Is this a personal beef between Little and Nagy.
Meanwhile I will continue to enjoy what ACR offers to it's participants.
JL doesn't know how to shut up while on a good thing, he is his own worst enemy, he only shot himself in the foot.

:bandit:
 
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fundiver199

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JL doesn't know how to shut up while on a good thing, he is his own worst enemy, he only shot himself in the foot.

:bandit:

Its probably not all that important to JL to play on ACR, since he is mainly a live poker player, and he also makes money from his training site pokercoaching.com. If anything this might give him more publicity. And of course nothing prevents him from continuing to rant about ACR and other unregulated poker sites, as much as he wants :)
 
Matt_Burns88

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ACR bans Jonathan Little

You may have noticed through the Twitterverse that ACR has recently banned Jonathan Little due to him stating regularly during streams that he does not advocate playing on ACR, or any other unregulated/unlicensed site.

Twitter seems to be completely divided; some saying that JL overstepped the mark and that ACR have the right to ban whomever they want from playing on their site and others saying that ACR are simply being petty and vindictive because a well known content creator is speaking his mind.

It has also been an opportunity for many people to bring up JL tainted past where he was banned from Full Tilt for sharing his account with a friend to take advantage of his 100% rakeback account.

Where do you stand? Are ACR justified in their decision to ban JL, or is JL doing the poker community a service by highlighting the possible dangers of playing on an unlicensed, unregulated site such as ACR?
 
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fundiver199

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Private businesses are allowed to refuse customers for whatever reason, they want. So as long as they refund his money, they are not doing anything wrong. But I dont think, this is a particularly smart move by ACR. I think, it gives them bad publicity, and it will almost certainly not make JL stop talking about them to his audience :)
 
Nafor

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Thanks for bringing this up Matt.
This was definitely a bad move from ACR. After all we are talking about the land of the free here where most people still value their freedom of speech. If ACR decides that there is room for only one opinion then that is one more reason to stay away from there.
 
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So, I found this....

Wow I just read a post where someone got banned for talking bad about a site. My personal opinion this is bad form as people make a living playing poker and to take someone’s livelihood for being vocal about non standard T+C’s is like you’ve got a GOD complex

I have had people call me every bad name in the book Joe Ingram voiced many opinions about WPN and myself after talking he was right on some things and some clarification were needed on others but NEVER would I take someone’s ability to make a living for disagreeing with me.

And yes I’m on hot monkey tilt about this and if your not you should be WHERE are the Regulators on something like this “Never say anything bad about us or your dead to me” let’s go burn some books while we’re at it.

Phillip Nagy, Dec 6 2019
 
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This contradicts my previous feelings, but... Even though I like Nagy, I don't think JL should have been banned, even though Nagy had good reason and was well within his rights.

It's not even about being a "good" or "bad" look for the company.

I think you need to have a good justification for doing things.

Phil's justification is to preserve his "happiness EV."

Which is fine. We should all do whatever makes us happy, or content.

But yea he's responsible for a big company and alot of people and players.

So reacting emotionally instead of logically is not the right play (I mean we're poker players here, right?).

At worst, Jonathan Little is a master troll, and I'll have to be sympathetic to the troll here just a little (pun intended) since I am one too.
 
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ACR Bans Jonathan Little

Although ACR is within its rights to ban anyone they choose, Mr. Nagy's Twitter rants are completely unprofessional and unbecoming of a legitimate business person. This behavior only seems to further justify Mr. Little's statements about ACR. Mr. Little said that ACR is an unlicensed and unregulated site. It is. Mr. Little said that ACR could be shut down at any time. It could. Mr. Little said that you should not keep any substantial some of money on any unlicensed unregulated site. Indeed you should not. Mr. Little also complained about the poor quality and reliability of ACR's software. The site does indeed go down often.

Mr. Little also defended the legitimacy of ACR's random number generator. He stated many times in chat while streaming that the site is not rigged, despite those that claim otherwise. I suspect Mr. Little is correct that the site is not rigged, though I have no evidence to prove so.

In contrast Mr. Little did indeed poke fun at Mr. Nagy and his shills when streaming. All gambling organizations employ shills. A shill is someone who is paid by a site to drive action to it, often without disclosing their financial affiliation. Ironically, Mr. Little actually drove action to ACR by streaming his play. I in fact started playing on ACR after watching Mr. Little's stream. Again it is ironic that Mr. Nagy's action will actually cause many of Mr. Little's followers to close their ACR accounts, especially if he starts streaming from another site.

Long term ACR's business model is fundamentally flawed. Though no more so than any other unlicensed unregulated site. Any business must attract customers to make money and stay in business. ACR must attract more players to grow and increase their revenue. They must attract at least enough players to replace those that inevitably will leave the site for one reason or another. The problem is if ACR grows too large it will attract the notice of the regulators and be shut down. They must carefully thread a needle, being popular within the poker community, but not popular enough to attract attention outside of it. Another risk is posed when more states legalize online poker. As more players have access to licensed and regulated sites, they are much less likely to play on unregulated sites. Therefore all unlicensed on unregulated sites will eventually fail at some point. The only question is when. What will Mr. Nagy do when ACR inevitably fails? Will he return everyone's money? He returned Mr. Little's money, so maybe he will. His unprofessionalism however does leave a seed of doubt. Only time will tell.
 
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...Long term ACR's business model is fundamentally flawed. Though no more so than any other unlicensed unregulated site. ...


I think you mean "any other POKER SITE."

Bringing in fresh new players to replace old/broker players is not a new thing, for regulated or un-regulated, so I don't know how the business model is flawed. Same as any other business who's patrons eventually stop patronizing.

The problem I have with regulation is that it creates another problem-- monopoly, makes it harder for newcomers to actually compete. Say you have a big problem with the existing player, well, then you're back to square 1, with no choice where to play.
 
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The problem is if ACR grows too large it will attract the notice of the regulators and be shut down.

Its not quite that simple. All poker sites operate from a country, where its legal, and its not like, for instance US authorities can just shut down a business, which operate in another country. Or for that matter chinese authorities. Online gambling is also not legal in China, so China facing sites operate from other countries like for instance Philippines. What happened on Black Friday was, that the sites being targeted had assets in US banks. This is a mistake, everyone in the business has almost certainly learned from since :)

With that being said, now that online poker and gambling in general has been regulated in some countries and US states, then the more serious sites will of course apply for licenses in these places. So a site choosing to not do so does put it in a little bit of a shady light. The more serious sites also tend to leave some of the unregulated markets, if it gets to "hot" so to say.
 
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If he was suspended simply for critisizing the site, its completely wrong. However if the player was using some unfair advantage, then the suspension would be justified. We all complain about apparent program defects in online games . Weird or impossible hands. Such as sites were the flop comes up 3 cards to one suit a disproportiante amount of times. Or trip aces lossing to 72 off, betting full gun , down to the river. This is why I allmost only play tourneys online, versus cash games. For the good stuff Ill wait till after the pandemic to go back to live games, Especially big tourneys.
 
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I stay neutral, Ca residents have limited choices

I don't have anything horrible to say about ACR; no site is perfect. I wish I had access to other sites, being limited to ACR, (California). But if the site is stiffing anyone, I hope it stops it.
 
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If he was suspended simply for critisizing the site, its completely wrong.

It was for being "overly negative" about the site. Nothing more and nothing less. He did not cheat in any way, and he only started playing there during the COVID-19 lockdowns, so its not like, it was a long lasting customer relationship.

Its all explained in that video, I posted a link to. I recommend people to watch the video, since it gives a good perspective not only on this particular incidence, but also on what is going on in the poker industry in general. A lot of people are being paid to promote poker sites, and while there is nothing wrong with that in itself, they are not witnesses of truth.
 
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I have just posted my latest blog, which discusses the situation in some depth. Please do give it a read and leave a comment - https://mattjburns1988.wixsite.com/website/post/acr-vs-jonathan-little
 
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