Is it really 'random'?

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queenie279

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I know alot people who say when playing online the cards that come are not random? What's your opinion?
 
NEWTDOG101

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What-else would they be if not random?
 
CuttleFish

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I know alot people who say when playing online the cards that come are not random? What's your opinion?

This is a deep question. If you believe the Universe started out from the Big Bang, then everything that flowed from that must have a given path and "random" is not an option, merely a relative term used to describe something that we have not yet able to calculate. Therefore it naturally follows that post-Big Bang, everything that has happened was pre-ordained. Therefore the cards are not randomly distributed, they are simply distributed in a pattern set up 13.75 billion years ago (+/- 0.11 billion years).

Hope this helps.

Cuttlefish
 
smokeme

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i dont think its random. i think its ones internet connection battling with anothers internet connection. who evers internet connection is stronger wins. :)
 
Bauss

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Yes the cards dealt are 100% random, I do a little programming and I learned how the random numbers are generated. They generate a number by counting the seconds from since 1970 so that value always increase, which allows you to get a random number from it. It probably doesn't make much sense to you, but take my word for it, it's as random as it gets.
 
smokeme

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really? so how many seconds u gotta wait to hit ur cards? is that why people take forever sometimes to call then hits the miracle river? is there a code or something? like you wait 5 seconds and your ace comes? 4 seconds for a K?
 
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queenie279

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Smokeme- you lost me on that one.
 
smokeme

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secrets of the universe :-D
 
NEWTDOG101

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This is a deep question. If you believe the Universe started out from the Big Bang, then everything that flowed from that must have a given path and "random" is not an option, merely a relative term used to describe something that we have not yet able to calculate. Therefore it naturally follows that post-Big Bang, everything that has happened was pre-ordained. Therefore the cards are not randomly distributed, they are simply distributed in a pattern set up 13.75 billion years ago (+/- 0.11 billion years).

Hope this helps.

Cuttlefish
^ This is a bit far out imo. But anyway most sites use a (RNG) Random Number Generator and it has been tested and proven to be legit. (At least by the big well known sites; pokerstars, FullTilt, etc.)
 
CuttleFish

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Was in a bit of a sarcastic mood, no offence meant.

One thing I do wonder though, does the random generator randomly sort them into an order first (like shuffling does), then "deal" from the top down in order, or does it "deal" by randomly selecting a card from the cards available, then do another random selection from the remaining cards for the next card "dealt"??
 
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It's as random you are going to get at the end of the day.

Not sure what people expect in general when they ask this question? If people are convinced they are not random, then they shoulden't be playing, simple. You usually see people say it isn't random when they take a badbeat etc.

I just challenge anyone as to what benefit would a site get from deciding to not have the random number generator, generate numbers randomly? The only thing that would happen, is they would lose their license and their company, for just deciding not to randomly generate numbers, for absolutely no reason at all..Kind of seems a crap deal for the poker site huh?

It's about as stupid as people asking/saying an on-line roulette wheel is not random ( you could in a sense argue this to some extent as you are playing the house) however, you then only need to see that in the long run when you see the odds etc...they just can not' lose, 100% fact based on simple maths..so saying their RNG is not "random" is also idiotic. as they gain absolutely ZERO benefit in having it "rigged"


There are absolutely "none" - the only time you could even think it, is if you are playing poker against the house (which is never the case) therefore, it IS as random as you can get..FACT and like the roulette wheel they make money on people wagering their money vs each other, so would have no reason to not have it all as random as it gets. Pokers rake, is like roulettes house edge, they are always going to win long term 100% therefore there is no reason to have nothing that is not random. Even if they did...they still wouldn't gain anything from it by "rigging" it for another player to win, it would be the other players money who won..not the poker site so it baffles me how people are so idiotic to even question it?

You are actually higher more likely to be cheater out of money via a live table than online because you don't know the actual people/dealers etc...they could be teaming up and so on..if anything it's more trusting online and more random online.
 
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fletchdad

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Some great answers. I like the sarcasm. But OP is probably confused and not a RT. There is a lot of negative and false info going around, and IMO it is only smart to be concerned and to try to find out what is true. For a new player, there is a lot of conflicting info, and who do you trust???

To OP:

You asked for our opinion. Someone who gives their opinion on this will almost certainly give an answer that is based on how bad their poker playing is. The RNGs are not run on opinion but are programs that run based on how they are programed.

There are people who say that the cards are manipulated to increase rake for the sites and to intentionally let big hands lose at times, among other "reasons". This stems from them wanting to believe they play poker better than they do, and they lose due to manipulation on the poker software.

Different sites use different RNGs - Random Number Generators - and the 2 I am aware of are a constant shuffle, and a new shuffle every hand. The first is shuffling all the time so you get a different card if you take longer to make a decision.

so, yea, it is random.
 
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Was in a bit of a sarcastic mood, no offence meant.

One thing I do wonder though, does the random generator randomly sort them into an order first (like shuffling does), then "deal" from the top down in order, or does it "deal" by randomly selecting a card from the cards available, then do another random selection from the remaining cards for the next card "dealt"??

stars deals them like you are live
 
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itnevermakesnosense

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anyone questioning the sites RNGs in these days is not right imo

there is other dangers to focus on like bots, colluding etc
 
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Fletchdad I usually play online and the people I have run into are always complaining about rigged this and rigged that. One person even told me to go to a website about Flop action or something like that. However, I was not convinced. Thank you for your opinion and not going the sarcastic route.:)
 
fletchdad

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Fletchdad I usually play online and the people I have run into are always complaining about rigged this and rigged that. One person even told me to go to a website about Flop action or something like that. However, I was not convinced. Thank you for your opinion and not going the sarcastic route.:)


lol, dont take it personally, if someone is sarcastic. A new player is going to hear about the "rigged" stuff, and I was very uncomfortable at first myself. And, there have been a number of cheating scandals, online and live, so to try to find out if you are setting your self up to be cheated is reasonable. But, some people scare newer players with nonsense, and since poker will only suffer if newer players decide to not play, some of us get kinda irritated when people talk about the rigging, and people such as yourself do get the bad end of the stick sometimes.
 
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Not random if you lose, and its random if u win... :D I think its random, its just when someone lose, or tilt he become angry and starts flame online poker.

And u can also see same crazy situations in live poker games, as well as on online poker.
 
Samango

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Fletchdad I usually play online and the people I have run into are always complaining about rigged this and rigged that. One person even told me to go to a website about Flop action or something like that. However, I was not convinced. Thank you for your opinion and not going the sarcastic route.:)

The 'rigged' opinion pops up quite regularly here too. At Cardschat any post that is trying to convince anyone that the sites or the cards are rigged, are moved here
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/pok...gged-megathread-all-rigged-roads-lead-208684/
... to the Rigged Megathread.

The rigged megathread is over 6,000 posts long now, but a few of our members are good enough to spend their valuable time trying to explain the truth to these deluded fools.. and it is often very funny!
 
Ezekiel162

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Sure it's random... As random as improbable and implausible, going against world known calculated statistics, can be...
 
dmorris68

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Strictly technical answer: No computer in the world is capable of producing "truly" 100% random numbers. The actual term for values produced by a RNG is "pseudo-random."

Practical answer: For human purposes, all a RNG has to do to be considered random is to be unpredictable (non-deterministic). Unless you are yourself a super-computer that happens to be privy to the seed data and algorithms used, modern RNGs are as random as you'll ever need to get. No human could possibly predict the patterns produced. For something as brain-dead simple as simulating a random shuffle of 52 cards, even the most basic of RNGs are typically sufficient, and from what I've heard the RNGs used by gaming sites are quite sophisticated.

The real challenge to RNGs is being crackable by computer, not by the human brain. If a crude seeding and algorithm are used, and can be figured out, then the RNG can certainly be crackable by a computer and reliable predictions made.

Also, online gaming licensors audit RNGs for randomness as a requirement for licensing.

Yes the cards dealt are 100% random, I do a little programming and I learned how the random numbers are generated. They generate a number by counting the seconds from since 1970 so that value always increase, which allows you to get a random number from it. It probably doesn't make much sense to you, but take my word for it, it's as random as it gets.
I've been a professional software developer for about 25 years now and have written more than a few RNGs. What you describe would be a really really crude one, and would never approach 100% random. Using a seed based on a static point in time is about the most basic and easily crackable of RNG's. No poker site would use something so crude. I doubt even the basic RNGs from modern language runtime libraries are that crude anymore. In fact the standard C runtime library requires a seed to be passed into it before you ask it for random numbers, it does not automatically use seconds since 1970 or anything else as its seed.

There are many many different implementations of "professional" RNGs. To produce the most random results possible, you need to start (seed) from a complete state of entropy. The number of seconds since 1970 is highly predictable (deterministic) and not at all entropic. Modern RNGs use a variety of methods to ensure non-deterministic seeds and patterns. Such as sampling the bits flowing over a network connection, or sampling and averaging user mouse movement coordinates and sending them back to the server, or using a radio receiver to sample RF static from the environment. An uncrackable RNG employs all sorts of sophisticated methods to establish non-deterministic seeds and then apply closely guarded algorithms using those seeds. And most will reseed and reset on an ongoing basis.

Bottom line is all modern, well-establishing gaming sites are using RNGs sophisticated enough to, for all human practical purposes, guarantee that your cards are random. Anyone saying different is just woefully ignorant of variance or trying to explain their poor results. Or just a tinfoil hat wearing rigtard.

Oh, and as far as the shuffling algorithm used, Stars is the only site I know of that uses what is called a static shuffle or "set" deck. Basically just like a live dealer, where the order of the deck is predetermined and doesn't change during the hand. All other sites use a constant shuffle where the remaining deck is constantly being reshuffled, hundreds or thousands of times per second. So if you take an extra second to make your decision, the next card is going to be totally different. And the flop you see when you fold is not the same flop you'd have seen if you called. This is also why the "rabbit" feature that many sites do now is strictly for entertainment purposes of the fish and not actually legit, because you can't rabbit from a constantly shuffled deck. And it's kind of funny that the only site that could truly rabbit -- PokerStars -- doesn't offer it (AFAIK).
 
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Ezekiel162

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Former programmer/webmaster for 20+ years as well... Let's play the part of the devil's advocate for a moment... and keep it as simple as possible. No calculus, C, C++ or any other sort of garbage 4 that matter...

Assume a we flip a coin. We would expect that it would land approximately 50/50 heads or tails right? Let's further take this to assume a TAG (ONLY for discussion example because I am not advocating TAG wins 50% of the...) Let's say that after the coin flips, the results are 100 heads and 0 Tails (or damn near close...) Wouldn't you think that this result goes completely against the rules of standard deviation? I mean for a player to play like 100 games and lose ALL 100 when they NORMALLY win let's say 50 out of 100... hmmm.... Seems even a woefully, ignorant, poor-playing, tinfoil hat-wearing rigtard can tell that that's a huge *ss variance swing... Dealers in the old west would get gunned down at card tables for the stuff these algorithms are generating.

jmho...
 
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dmorris68

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Your analogy couldn't possibly be more flawed. To even suggest a style of play (TAG) is any way related to odds of winning or coinflips is silly, so why even make the comparison?

First, 100 is not a statistically significant sample size. It is entirely possible, however improbable, that you'll flip heads 80 times. Over a much larger sample size, say 1K or 10K, then it should definitely align more towards 50/50.

A better comparison to a coinflip would be to take 100 (or better, 1000 or 10K) AK vs QQ (or any underpair) hand and see how often each wins. I have hundreds of thousands of hands in my database that I can run all kinds of statistics like this on, and they always bear out the numbers that they should.

So yes, taking your example as a test of the statistical standard, to put any stock into it is definitely venturing into either massive ignorance or tinfoil-hat-wearing rigtardness. And dealers in the old west (or current times for that matter) never get to see the number of hands seen in online poker, so the variance plays out over such a long period that nobody can possibly notice it.
 
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