Huge DoN scandal, colluders from Hangzhou China on stars banned

silverfox432

silverfox432

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Total posts
382
Chips
0
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/internet-poker/thats-way-ps-treating-winning-player-791760/

Apparently there are/were sweat shops in China working around the clock playing DoN's on stars colluding with each other. Also from the same town as a bunch of Stud cheaters.

Has any DoN grinders received any refunds yet?

"so...why didn't stars catch this earilier?
they needed other regs to email them 50 times before they looked into it? so if the players never noticed it on a large scale they never would have gotten caught?"

"still a very big red flag when many chinese start overtaking these double or nothings and should not take over a year to figure out. Also 'Sishun' and 'Superxia' also both from this town were kicked off in july of last year for cheating. They also played 52, 54, and 104 don. They had won over 30k combined and started playing at the same time and only in don's together. I just wonder how big this scandal was....and how much it affected us regs.....I'm just saying that Pokerstars had every opportunity to catch this almost a year ago"


this doesn't look like a minor thing, i'm gonna finish editing this to find out how much was involved. About $555,000 in profit in don's from $5-$104......how sick pokerstars. Superxia and Sishun were turned in on June of last year and that should have started the investigation at that point. This is very disappointing....


jessica318- 30k profit, last game played 1/25/10
wudiyg- 99k profit, last game played 2/10/10
jane1023-55k profit, last game played 2/18/10
gucci53- 33k profit, last game played 2/8/10
lazzzzzzy- 15k profit, last game played 1/7/10
renhe88- 34k profit, last game 2/14/10
Xuanyu.L-16k profit, last game 3/19/10
chenxr- 42k profit, last game 2/18/10
flypretty-4.4 k profit, last game 5/4/10
nayouyi-13k profit last game 2/17/10
hzlsl-25k profit, last game 1/29/10
freetime1955- 400 profit, last game 2/5/10
xxwpk168- 21k profit, last game 2/5/10
microsoft25- 3.1k profit last game 2/8/10
wenpk15888- 8.4k last game 2/18/10
strong arm A- 2.2 k profit, last game 1/23/10
degreexia- 1.5k profit last game 11/7/2009
ellena054- 4.4 k profit, last game 5/20/2010
jinse888-15k profit, 2/5/10 last game
liuli888-1k profit, 2/5/10
rara999-3.1k profit last game 2/17/10
dcbm288- no profit, last game 2/18/10
linyin- 2.7k last game 2/10/10
yangguangze-830 profit last game 11/29/2009
pakerster-2k profit last game 2/9/2010
yutian-8.1k profit, last game 2/6/2010
wenpk15888- 8.4k profit 2/18/2010
coroinpu- 6.3k profitlast game 2/16/2010
maomao1832-9k profit last game 2/18/2010
hslj001- 1k profit last game 2/3/2010
psnyls-1k profit last game 2/14/2010
goloverez777- 11k profit, last game 5/10/2010
leaders668-4.8k profit last game 2/18/2010
guiliang- 2.0k profitlast game 1/31/2010
chijianli- 10k profit last game 2/17/10
xiawenju- 5.3k profit last game 2/1/10
147222-11k profit last game 2/17/10
wzem618800- no profit, last game 2/17/10
mnbqwe12- 4k profit last game 2/18/10
wzhongz-6.4k profit last game 2/17/10
superxia-16k profit, last game 6/29/2009
sishun-14k profit, last game 6/29/2009
 
Zorba

Zorba

27
Platinum Level
Joined
Jul 21, 2007
Total posts
41,777
Awards
15
AQ
Chips
148
Clearly looks like they got caught out.... I liked the following responce from one of the 2+2 Members,
it is in responce from jane1023, one of the cheaters
2+2 said:
Re: That's the way PS treating a winning player
Ya finally got busted huh? Well it's about time. I sent about 25 emails in complaining about you ****ing clowns. There is no question you would soft play and that's at the very least of what you guys did.

You know you're guilty so why the **** would you even start this thread? Some kind of weird attention seeking?

Oh btw thanks for the $343 refund! Ya dumb ****

I just read on a bit further and after being asked many times for HH's jane1023 finally responds with

"And I am bad about computer so I did not know how to find my hands history.But I am very sure I fight with some of them very often in the table."

Now coming from a noob fish I can maybe understand that they can't find HH's, but this is from the "sharkscope" supposed wining player of the DoN.
 
Last edited:
slycbnew

slycbnew

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 8, 2008
Total posts
2,876
Chips
0
That thread tilts me because of the bickering (though obv it's useful for the community), so I'm not going to try to finish reading it. Are these cliffs accurate or not:

1. OP claims to have been unfairly banned by PS for collusion in DONs, and is upset that no proof has been provided that she actually did collude.
2. PS apparently banned a number of players from the same town in China for collusion, and OP is one of them.
3. Refunds are being made (at least one poster indicated he'd received a refund).
4. No definitive evidence of collusion has been presented - but that's kind of a moot point in this case, as PS has already rendered judgment, and it'd be unusual for PS to demonstrate how the collusion actually occurred (that'd be dumb on a few levels).
 
silverfox432

silverfox432

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Total posts
382
Chips
0
That thread tilts me because of the bickering (though obv it's useful for the community), so I'm not going to try to finish reading it. Are these cliffs accurate or not:

1. OP claims to have been unfairly banned by PS for collusion in DONs, and is upset that no proof has been provided that she actually did collude.
2. PS apparently banned a number of players from the same town in China for collusion, and OP is one of them.
3. Refunds are being made (at least one poster indicated he'd received a refund).
4. No definitive evidence of collusion has been presented - but that's kind of a moot point in this case, as PS has already rendered judgment, and it'd be unusual for PS to demonstrate how the collusion actually occurred (that'd be dumb on a few levels).

That about sums it up!
 
Debi

Debi

Forum Admin
Administrator
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Total posts
74,604
Awards
20
Chips
1,322
I have a few good friends and coaches who play those - interesting.
 
kmixer

kmixer

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Total posts
2,936
Chips
0
This cheating exists everywhere. With some of the cheaters on the books. We must face this fact. I know that PS has excellent support but I am bummed to hear how long it took to catch these guys after all the emails that were sent.
 
coolnout

coolnout

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 1, 2009
Total posts
1,750
Chips
0
This cheating exists everywhere. With some of the cheaters on the books. We must face this fact. I know that PS has excellent support but I am bummed to hear how long it took to catch these guys after all the emails that were sent.

Ya, one of the players had 10,000+ games, and $50,000 in profits. WTF.
Pretty sick how many people were affected, and nowhere near all the money was recovered.
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Total posts
9,218
Chips
0
Honestly there is little surprise there. DoN is the variant of poker in which it is the easiest to collude, because the ICM value of chips varies so massively with the super flat payout structure. It's also one of the variants where it would be easiest to program a bot.

This is a HUGE argument in favor of playing deep stacked cash games, which is the variant of poker that is the least in danger of these problems.
 
Maid Marian

Maid Marian

RIP Baby BooBoo
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Total posts
11,645
Chips
0
I play those DON's regularly @ Stars...I have wondered about collusion many times, but figured it was merely my bad luck to lose!:(
 
coolnout

coolnout

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 1, 2009
Total posts
1,750
Chips
0
brings up an interesting point. what interest do sites like stars and ftp have to ban bots, colluders, etc. they were generating huge amounts of rake for stars. someone posted stars made almost $350k in rake from this group.
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Total posts
9,218
Chips
0
I play those DON's regularly @ Stars...

There's a simple fix for that: don't play don's.

Seriously. Would you take part in the CBS show "Survivor" is for all you knew the other participants could all be friends of each other before joining the game? What would you expect your chances of getting voted off would be? DON's add a minor element of luck to it, but in essence it's a game of survivor, and collusion is so profitable at that game that you have to expect it will happen repeatedly.
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Total posts
9,218
Chips
0
By the way, FTP has repeatedly refused to add DoN's to their SNG offer. I'm pretty sure the reason for it is that they don't feel capable of monitoring those for collusion in any satisfactory way.
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Total posts
9,218
Chips
0
brings up an interesting point. what interest do sites like stars and ftp have to ban bots, colluders, etc. they were generating huge amounts of rake for stars. someone posted stars made almost $350k in rake from this group.

Running a successful poker room is not strictly about generating a lot of rake.

In the poker economy, fishes deposit and that money goes partly to winning regs and partly to the rooms through rake. Both provide a service to the fish (room provide the tables, regs the playmates) and therefore it's fair they should get paid.

Good poker rooms choose the rake percentage and VIP rewards appropriately to ensure the economy remains sustainable: the fishes can play long enough to feel they got their money's worth, the regs can earn enough to justify spending time keeping the games going, and the room earns enough to cover it's expenses and get money to their shareholders.

Colluders break that fine balance. They earn more than their share of the fish's money and they make the games less enjoyable for these net depositors. So it makes a lot of economic sense for the rooms to go after them.
 
Maid Marian

Maid Marian

RIP Baby BooBoo
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Total posts
11,645
Chips
0
I've won the majority of the DON's I've played @ Stars...but thanks for the info!:)
 
O

only_bridge

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 3, 2009
Total posts
1,805
Chips
0
I know stars try to pay back to the affected players, but what about other sites? Does FT for instance pay back players subject to colluders?
 
coolnout

coolnout

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 1, 2009
Total posts
1,750
Chips
0
I know stars try to pay back to the affected players, but what about other sites? Does FT for instance pay back players subject to colluders?

I believe they run very close to the same policy. They confiscate the accounts and distribute whatever funds are available in them. You receive an email from their security dept that anonymous was caught cheating, etc. In the case of one of the accounts I think the guy made $50k, but only $10k was available to be distributed. They don't pay out of pocket.
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Total posts
9,218
Chips
0
I know stars try to pay back to the affected players, but what about other sites? Does FT for instance pay back players subject to colluders?

They do. But since they don't offer DoNs, they have a lot less colluders to worry about in the first place.
 
dmorris68

dmorris68

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
May 27, 2008
Total posts
6,788
Awards
2
Chips
0
I've won the majority of the DON's I've played @ Stars...but thanks for the info!:)
Me too, although I've just recently started playing them. I'm 16/18 at the moment, and they just seem too easy not to play them. Of course it looks like these guys are probably playing higher limits ($50+) while I've only played up to the $20 ones, and to be honest I've not noticed many Chinese players. Still, I'll probably keep playing them until (a) my streak dies, and/or (b) I get a sense of consistent collusion going on.
 
NoWuckingFurries

NoWuckingFurries

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Total posts
3,834
Awards
1
Chips
29
Interesting link, BS :)
Most people will get this email and think "there were cheaters in my games but Stars found them pretty quickly and have compensated me, great". However the reality is that if you receive this email you are never going to know truly how badly you were affected by the colluders and if the amount credited to you by PokerStars comes close to making up for it, where as the person reporting the crime is over-compensated in most cases because they are given refunds for the games played with colluders where they dont cash and get to keep the money when they win, effectively freerolling in games with colluders. Meanwhile the other players in the game are given a small portion of what's left over from the confiscated funds.

Is this fair? No, ofcourse not. This policy isn't set up to be as fair as possible to everyone involved, it's set up to protect the image of PokerStars. PokerStars image means absolutely everything to them so it makes sense for them to treat the person reporting the crime as well as possible, to the point where they are even over-compensated, then to split up what's left of the confiscated funds and send small refunds to the other players...
Actually I think it makes sense to reward people that take the time and trouble to provide you with a detailed analysis of how certain players have colluded against then, presumably they could potentially be quite useful to your business.

Also if people receive an unexpected credit, shouldn't they be grateful? :p
 
tpb221

tpb221

Chasing Gutshots
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Total posts
2,095
Awards
1
Chips
0
Cheating in DoN have been one of stars biggest problems they have with cheaters. Stars has elude to this when people ask for bigger DoN. Strangely even with all the cheaters in these the regs(non-cheating ones) still find them profitable.
 
brank

brank

Back in!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 15, 2009
Total posts
1,354
Chips
0
Yikes, this is turning out to be a big deal.
 
jdeliverer

jdeliverer

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Total posts
1,386
Chips
0
I'm 16/18 at the moment, and they just seem too easy not to play them.

Don't let an obvious hot streak go to your head. Even at the lower levels there's no way anyone's even touching 75%.
 
dmorris68

dmorris68

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
May 27, 2008
Total posts
6,788
Awards
2
Chips
0
Don't let an obvious hot streak go to your head. Even at the lower levels there's no way anyone's even touching 75%.
LDO, I know it's not sustainable. But as long as I'm running hot I'm not quitting either. ;)
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Total posts
9,218
Chips
0
Cross-posting from 2+2, because it allows me to show off my knowledge of game theory... :D

You always know many regular players in Sit and Go games.That means I know their dates.Maybe I treat them a liittle bit better than nomal player.But that is the way you play Double and Nothing game.

Actually, OP does have a point here. Regulars playing DoNs are essentially playing iterated prisonner's dilemna between each others, in an evolutionnary setup where good strategies means you profit and are able to stay in the games or move up, and bad strategies will make you busto.

Game theory pretty clearly shows that this kind of setup will favor the emergence of "tit for tat" like strategies that are nice, retaliating, forgiving and non-envious. In other words, even if you don't collude explicitely, implicit collusion strategies (between games) will emerge naturally.

This is a very obvious flaw of the payout structure of DoNs which should lead Pokerstars to discontinue de games, because no amount of policing will ever prevent the emergence of implicit collusion between regulars.
 
PokerStars Reviews: Français, Nederlands, Deutsch, Dansk, Italiano, Español, Polski, Norsk, Português, Svenska - PokerStars Mobile - Deutsch Mobile - PS Casino
Top