Chances of another user exploiting software to see cards?

quick

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I'll start by clearly stating that I do not belief online poker is "rigged" in that I don't believe a site needs to "rig" the game to make money since they already make money from rake. Although I do sometimes joke about "action flops" and "action rivers," I don't actually believe that this needs to be done since again...rake will come always.

Putting the "it's rigged" thing to bed, my concern centers on the possibility of certain players on sites somehow gaining access to parts of the software they shouldn't have access to. Such as seeing other players' hole cards, seeing the next card in deal, etc. Is this possible?

I recently requested the security team of a site i play on to review two user names on one of the sites that seemed to never lose.

One in particular , who I've played tens of thousands of hands with or at the same table with over the past few months, is always "up" on any table they're on, never speaks in chat, never seems to call when behind, and seems to either flop massive hands or "catch" on the river whenever we see the player go to showdown, which they do often. And whenever another player is "ahead" by a mile they insta fold, whenever another player is behind they tank and then make a large bet and get called only to see they won yet again. Something just doesn't smell right here.

Now I'm not saying this is the case that these users are somehow cheating or gaining an exploitative edge here.

But I did express my concerns to the site security and am wondering if this is something that's actually, from a technical standpoint, a possibility? I mean it's certainly possible, and I actually hope is the case, that the player(s) in question are just really good skilled poker players , but technically speaking this kind of exploit could be possible could it not?

Again I don't think it's the site's fault or doing but really a bit concerned that a user could exploit software in this manner.
 
Andrew Popov

Andrew Popov

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rake will come always.
more rake, more profit?! :D
Large companies do not hesitate to commit any crimes for a few more million profits, especially if the risk of getting caught is very small, because to prove anything to the player is not possible, one can only guess ... :damnmate:
 
escurimX

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I believe that this type of fraud does not happen ... because there would be a huge damage to the sites of poker games
 
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more rake, more profit?! :D
Large companies do not hesitate to commit any crimes for a few more million profits, especially if the risk of getting caught is very small, because to prove anything to the player is not possible, one can only guess ... :damnmate:

Well I mean it's something we do laugh about that sites "might" make action hands happen to generate more rake. But if that got found out it would imply that the RNG and action on the site isn't random or fair. So rake will always be there and always come, so I don't believe they need to jack up the action seriously to get a few extra bucks; that's what their odds on sports betting, and house games in their online casino do. I'm referring in this case to a player acting externally from the site (either a rogue employee or simply someone with hardware and some good skills to overcome security features) to benefit themselves not the site.

I believe that this type of fraud does not happen ... because there would be a huge damage to the sites of poker games

I'd hope to agree but we've seen the Ultimate Bet/Absolute Poker scandal with the super user who worked for the company and could in fact see all the cards. And he wasn't doing it for the company, he was doing it for himself. Thats what I mean someone acting alone or with a partner to gain an unfair cheating advantage over other players (i.e. rogue employee like in the above scandal seeing everyone's holes cards in real time or just someone trying to cheat and win money through a security hole or software exploit.)

So I don't mean site company policy is to commit fraud here, I mean someone acting alone externally from the site's policies, objectives, and behaviors.
 
Andrew Popov

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If this is done not by the companies themselves, but by someone from the staff - I'm afraid to imagine what will be done to them. After all, they undermine the very basis of this business. However, I will not be sorry for them.
 
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As you say, superuser scandals have happened before. Where there is money to be made by cheating, some people will try to cheat.

But the vast majority of the time these suspicions are not validated.

So far all you have presented is anecdotal evidence. This does not make for a strong case.

Do you have stats from a program like PT4 or HM2 for this player?

If so, have you looked at his graph at least, to make sure it looks like the path of a rocket in flight?

In PT4 there is a Standard Deviation (BB/100) stat that might be helpful, though I am not sure what range should be considered normal. Anyone else have any thoughts on that stat, or other stats that could be used to demonstrate that this player is more than just lucky?
 
kucu2014

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Every day you can hear some other forums but I hope you do not know
 
froggeedogs

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always tempting to blame rigged site for one's losses, but I really don't think it happens. there are suspicious players here and there but the sites are good are keeping an eye on them when reported.
 
quick

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always tempting to blame rigged site for one's losses, but I really don't think it happens. there are suspicious players here and there but the sites are good are keeping an eye on them when reported.

I don''t blame the site or say the site was responsible. I agree that it's unlikely a site would "rig" action and there's been no evidence to even suggest that. But as you say there are suspicious players and I'm thankful this particular site took my concern seriously (and their reputation is stellar).

Every day you can hear some other forums but I hope you do not know
Not sure what these means.

As you say, superuser scandals have happened before. Where there is money to be made by cheating, some people will try to cheat.

But the vast majority of the time these suspicions are not validated.

So far all you have presented is anecdotal evidence. This does not make for a strong case.

Do you have stats from a program like PT4 or HM2 for this player?

If so, have you looked at his graph at least, to make sure it looks like the path of a rocket in flight?

In PT4 there is a Standard Deviation (BB/100) stat that might be helpful, though I am not sure what range should be considered normal. Anyone else have any thoughts on that stat, or other stats that could be used to demonstrate that this player is more than just lucky?

I agree. And unfortunately my PC has been crapping out lately, I lost my sample from like June to August which was like 55K hands :mad:. But I got it running again a few weeks ago and backed up so hopefully I can either a.) get hand histories reimported from the site to HM2 or at least get 10K hands or so samples from past few weeks and review them.

In terms of statistical factors, I'm sure someone here knows more than me but roughly speaking I think we're looking for data that suggests we're roughly looking to see if over a larger sample the odds make sense.

If this is done not by the companies themselves, but by someone from the staff - I'm afraid to imagine what will be done to them. After all, they undermine the very basis of this business. However, I will not be sorry for them.

I agree. And like I said I truly hope my concerns are unfounded.
 
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Speak no evil, hear no evil, see no evil.
poker-conspiracy-pokerstars-illuminati-1.jpg
 
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Forbesy604

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I really doubt there is any chance of other members using exploits especially on the more commercial poker sites
 
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I really doubt there is any chance of other members using exploits especially on the more commercial poker sites

How would one know? Server side exploits needs not be utilized; since data like hole cards are transmitted only to the user's computer whose hand it is, the site could only really prevent an interception of that data coming into the server or right when it leaves the server.

That's why I'm asking about the technical liklihood of this kind of exploit. Also the site in question is looking into my concern...I'm certainly not suggesting the site is involved in any way in the exploit.

Speak no evil, hear no evil, see no evil.
poker-conspiracy-pokerstars-illuminati-1.jpg

I kindly ask if you're going to comment on a thread you add something of relevance to the thread.
 
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How would one know? Server side exploits needs not be utilized; since data like hole cards are transmitted only to the user's computer whose hand it is, the site could only really prevent an interception of that data coming into the server or right when it leaves the server.

That's why I'm asking about the technical liklihood of this kind of exploit. Also the site in question is looking into my concern...I'm certainly not suggesting the site is involved in any way in the exploit.



I kindly ask if you're going to comment on a thread you add something of relevance to the thread.
I did, you just don't comprehend it.

If you go out seeking malice in the system then malice is what you'll find.

Try to realize the favor bot users do you, they are so easy to bait and bluff as they can't fathom being slowplayed or overbet if it's not in your pattern of typical plays.

You can do it over and over without hesitation to the player(s) you identify as bot and they then will adapt wrong and play into your straightforward plays thinking you are tricking them.
 
quick

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I did, you just don't comprehend it.

If you go out seeking malice in the system then malice is what you'll find.

Try to realize the favor bot users do you, they are so easy to bait and bluff as they can't fathom being slowplayed or overbet if it's not in your pattern of typical plays.

You can do it over and over without hesitation to the player(s) you identify as bot and they then will adapt wrong and play into your straightforward plays thinking you are tricking them.

You might want to look up the word "comprehend " because it's clear you didn't comprehend my post which had nothing to do with bots. :D Please re-read and then comment.

No you didn't, you posted a picture and that's all. This thread is not about bots.

:deal:

Thanks Zorba. Every once in a while you get this odd commenters that don't read the post and just want to post pictures.
 
393700

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the game itself is full, but it is possible that in any program based on the casino principle, there is a percentage of return and profit.
 
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vic75

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I think that collusion is a bigger problem on sites it probably happens a lot more often then people realize.
 
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I'll start by clearly stating that I do not belief online poker is "rigged" in that I don't believe a site needs to "rig" the game to make money since they already make money from rake. Although I do sometimes joke about "action flops" and "action rivers," I don't actually believe that this needs to be done since again...rake will come always.

Putting the "it's rigged" thing to bed, my concern centers on the possibility of certain players on sites somehow gaining access to parts of the software they shouldn't have access to. Such as seeing other players' hole cards, seeing the next card in deal, etc. Is this possible?

I recently requested the security team of a site i play on to review two user names on one of the sites that seemed to never lose.

One in particular , who I've played tens of thousands of hands with or at the same table with over the past few months, is always "up" on any table they're on, never speaks in chat, never seems to call when behind, and seems to either flop massive hands or "catch" on the river whenever we see the player go to showdown, which they do often. And whenever another player is "ahead" by a mile they insta fold, whenever another player is behind they tank and then make a large bet and get called only to see they won yet again. Something just doesn't smell right here.

Now I'm not saying this is the case that these users are somehow cheating or gaining an exploitative edge here.

But I did express my concerns to the site security and am wondering if this is something that's actually, from a technical standpoint, a possibility? I mean it's certainly possible, and I actually hope is the case, that the player(s) in question are just really good skilled poker players , but technically speaking this kind of exploit could be possible could it not?

Again I don't think it's the site's fault or doing but really a bit concerned that a user could exploit software in this manner.
That player (I assume is a regular cash game player) and is using the concept of avoiding a bigstack reducing all their profit to 0 regardless of the hand they hold.

They are a nit and are exploitable but people are not baiting them well and they are picking up on tells.
 
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That player (I assume is a regular cash game player) and is using the concept of avoiding a bigstack reducing all their profit to 0 regardless of the hand they hold.

They are a nit and are exploitable but people are not baiting them well and they are picking up on tells.


So stilll not actually responding to the original post. I’m asking about the technical aspect and possibly of hole card exploits not nits. Nits I agree are exploitable but my OP doesn’t refer to nits. I appreciate your comment Here but I’m looking for more on the tech aspect and the likelihood of exploiting of coding flaws.

As in IT input .
 
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So stilll not actually responding to the original post. I’m asking about the technical aspect and possibly of hole card exploits not nits. Nits I agree are exploitable but my OP doesn’t refer to nits. I appreciate your comment Here but I’m looking for more on the tech aspect and the likelihood of exploiting of coding flaws.

As in IT input .
This depends on how decent the site is.

Basically the only way a non-member-of-staff can access this data is if that company allows members of staff with their work computer to download things and therefore something called a RAT [http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/definition/RAT-remote-access-Trojan] is uploaded to it.

I know more about how, if you had a RAT inside their computer, you could do far worse than just cheat at poker but I'm not at legal nor moral liberty to reveal such level of coding to anyone.
 
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