Can ANY site stop or prevent this type of cheating?

Michael Paler

Michael Paler

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Many of you might be aware of the kerfuffle that occurred here this week. Someone (who shall remain nameless) who wanted to win the $100.00 CC was giving away for guessing the day and time we hit 100,000 members created xx number of false "new" signups. Distasteful, and thank goodness Dakota-xx was on the job to stop it.

While talking about this "amazing what some people will do for a few bucks" issue with some non-online poker friends, naturally the subject of online poker being rigged came up. After I destroyed the argument that the sites would do this for some reason, two things were brought up that I could not refute. One is, I think, unavoidable. The other one got me to thinking really hard. Here they are:

1.) It is IMPOSSIBLE to stop collusion online.

I do not worry about this too much. I think the sites monitor the games enough to catch this. If not, the only way to do so is for the players to get suspicious and report it. This would only make sense at a cash table.

Yet you could just skip the collusion player to player part and rely on just knowing what xx number out of 9 players were dealt post flop. Ugly, could happen, I hope not. I see no way that this could be detected or stopped.

But this next one sent a shiver down my spine. Someone please tell me this cannot happen. Please tell me it could be detected by the site. I do not know how:

2) Windows remote desktop.

You have 5 friends sign up onto a site with their computer at their home on their IP address. Then one guy at one location can access all 5 computers remotely.

To the site it looks like 5 different IP addresses...5 diffrent people....thats because it is! You are just simply accessing and controlling the computers from your IP address. Those "away" computers are accessing the web thru the local IP address. But it could be one guy now playing as 5 different people. This could make an online MTT a win-win possibility for a good enough player. It would eliminate the entire multi user problem by using 5 separate and distinct IP addresses.

And chip dumping after is not really needed. Just cut those other guys whose computers you are using in and have them make the withdrawals under their own names and accounts. Leave them enough for the taxes and a little profit and baad-a-bing baad-a-boop...you are all "in the money". If you get any questions, you have 5 people saying "yes. I played the game."

I spend a lot of time defending online poker. So please, CC members, please tell me I am wrong, that the sites can detect this type of "multi using" somehow. Tell me some cheat using windows remote desktop or some other similar program could not do this!
 
XXPXXP

XXPXXP

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think that if u feel several player, online cooperation play cheating.

just save hand history and send to customer service...see what's happening.
 
olliejjc16

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If that can happen I don't see what the problem is? It would basically be the same as multi-entry in Full Tilt Tournaments, you pay more for more chances to win just a far more convulted way of doing it! Where I could see it being a problem is in freerolls is that what you mean?
 
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I would not worry too much about that-to make any money the cheater has to finish AT VERY LEAST first and third. Nobody would mess with the trouble of it at the smaller stakes I play.
Also collusion is a noticeable thing, if you are paying attention you can see it. I have paranoid tendencies...I worry more about the possibility of people being able to see the cards, maybe playing smaller stakes to get under the radar.
I know this sounds like bs, but who among you hasn't said "how did he call that!!!??" and the fact is it has happened-the ap ub scandal comes to mind, but how many were not exposed??


"Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get me."
 
S3mper

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Well I can see everyone's hole cards but I'm not cheating to do it =) JK I'm awful if I were a ship I'd sink sooo many leaks =(
 
Michael Paler

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I asked Ultimate about this (the windows remote desktop). I was told that the software just simply will not work on any computer that has any remote access program installed on it! They sent me a list:

Team View
Remote Access
Remote Desktop
GoToMyPC
LogMeIn
VNC

If you have one of those programs installed, do not expect ultimate to work!

This makes me feel better. I thought as much, just was not 100% certain.

As for the collusion over the phone, I still think guys getting together could be of some benefit and be hard to detect. That being said, it still is not a good replacement for skill. Phil Hellmuth once caught some guys on a table doing this (at least he claimed they were) and still won it. Just goes to show. You just cannot by-pass skill.

And I know it sounds silly, but look at what lengths some people will go to for only a few bucks. The absurdity of the small scale just isn't enough to discount it. I would never risk my membership here for a measly $100.00. Would you? Of course not. Still, some knucklehead did just that.
 
Propane Goat

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And I know it sounds silly, but look at what lengths some people will go to for only a few bucks. The absurdity of the small scale just isn't enough to discount it. I would never risk my membership here for a measly $100.00. Would you? Of course not. Still, some knucklehead did just that.

Martha Stewart risked prison for ~$200k when she was already a billionaire, which makes it pocket change for her. With some people it's like a disease, I don't know if it's the thrill of getting something for nothing, or trying to see if they can outsmart everyone else.
 
Michael Paler

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Martha Stewart risked prison for ~$200k when she was already a billionaire, which makes it pocket change for her. With some people it's like a disease, I don't know if it's the thrill of getting something for nothing, or trying to see if they can outsmart everyone else.

Gotta be. I almost forgot about her, thanks for mentioning that. Just plain old greed.

People said I was stupid because I did not take out a second mortgage when they told me my house was worth 650k in 2007 (could have gotten loan for 710k lol), before the market crashed (In California, they cannot recover the loss). I insisted on keeping 75% equity thinking it would not possibly fall below that (HA!). The fact I could not afford a 4k a month mortgage payment ruled this out; isn't that stupid?

Well, I may be stupid, but at least I sleep all night long peacefully.
 
wagon596

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Thank goodness I don't play high enough stakes to have to worry about such things. It's the world we live in that if there is money involved someone will try to cheat or rob... Some people's ego are so big they don't do for the money, they just do it to prove they can get over on people. " Sad But True" to use a Metallica song title. Take care
 
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atownshend

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I had money refunded the other day from PS. Money I thought I had lost fair and square on a Zoom table. They implied there had been cheating, they did not say how.
 
Poker Orifice

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A method that has been used for cheating in online MTT's is > a very experienced player will run a stable of players & arrange a deal with them that once they're deep in a tourney they turn it over to the guy & he gives them a pre-arranged cut or buyout. (read a bit about this awhile back about some guys who were doing this in Russia, with a couple of them exposing some of the others. Don't ask me for quotes etc. as I never bothered to save any of it but was an interesting read).
 
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atownshend

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Here is a copy of the email I mentioned.

Hello,

pokerstars has become aware of a situation involving a violation of our Terms of Service, to the potential detriment of other players. You participated in games that were under consideration in this case and as a result you may have been adversely affected.

In a case such as this it is our policy to confiscate the balances of the offender(s) and for PokerStars to add funds where appropriate. This compensation pool is then distributed to players potentially affected in as fair a way as possible.

To confirm your credit, please log onto your PokerStars account, go to the 'Cashier' screen and click the 'History' button. Your share will be shown as "REFUND", followed by the amount of the credit.

The integrity of the games at PokerStars is of paramount importance and appropriate action will always be taken when players operate outside the Terms of Service. PokerStars works hard to police the games in order to pro-actively prevent such instances. However, in cases where it is discovered that rules breaches have occurred, the aim is to ensure that any players affected are compensated appropriately.

We regret that we will be unable to answer questions as to how your specific credit amount was calculated. Likewise, we are not at liberty to identify the specific games or player(s) in question. Suffice to say that the offender(s) have been barred from the site and you will not encounter them again.

Thank you for your continued play at PokerStars. Please let us know if we can help you with any further issues or questions.

Regards,

PokerStars Game Integrity Team
 
Michael Paler

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Here is a copy of the email I mentioned.

Hello,

PokerStars has become aware of a situation involving a violation of our Terms of Service, to the potential detriment of other players. You participated in games that were under consideration in this case and as a result you may have been adversely affected.

In a case such as this it is our policy to confiscate the balances of the offender(s) and for PokerStars to add funds where appropriate. This compensation pool is then distributed to players potentially affected in as fair a way as possible.

To confirm your credit, please log onto your PokerStars account, go to the 'Cashier' screen and click the 'History' button. Your share will be shown as "REFUND", followed by the amount of the credit.

The integrity of the games at PokerStars is of paramount importance and appropriate action will always be taken when players operate outside the Terms of Service. PokerStars works hard to police the games in order to pro-actively prevent such instances. However, in cases where it is discovered that rules breaches have occurred, the aim is to ensure that any players affected are compensated appropriately.

We regret that we will be unable to answer questions as to how your specific credit amount was calculated. Likewise, we are not at liberty to identify the specific games or player(s) in question. Suffice to say that the offender(s) have been barred from the site and you will not encounter them again.

Thank you for your continued play at PokerStars. Please let us know if we can help you with any further issues or questions.

Regards,

PokerStars Game Integrity Team

I am so pleased to see this. It is too bad you do not know if someone complained or if PS caught them cheating. Or if it was simple collusion or a form of multi using. I cannot blame them for not clarifying it, however; as soon as word gets out some clever little thief will simply find a way to slither around the rules.

I also got an email from a site I contacted and asked about it. It is this kind of attention that will keep the OLP industry on the up-and-up. This is important if we want it legalized.

"Jake (Player Care)
Jul 14 03:57 (PDT)

Heya Michael,

Thanks for fighting the good fight out there. I wanted to give you a quick response on what I know right now.

We don't allow any kind of remote access software. I don't know exactly what kinds of detection process we have, but I do know that people email us in with problems playing, and once we take the remote access software off their computer, they are able to play. I've even got a little macro button that spits out programmed information to people with these programs.

It looks like this:
(Any program that allows remote access or control of your computer will prevent Ultimate Poker from running. If you have any of the following programs, or other programs with similar functionality, they must not be running when you try to run Ultimate Poker:

TeamView
Remote Access
Remote Desktop
GoToMyPC
LogMeIn
VNC

Without realizing exactly what the program does, many people have one of these or similar programs installed on their work laptops so their computers can access an office network while on the road or to receive assistance from IT remotely.

If this doesn't ring any bells and you're still having trouble, let us know so we can assist you further in troubleshooting exactly what is causing this problem.

This should resolve the issue; however, if you continue to encounter any problems, please do not hesitate to contact us further. )

I hope this answers some questions for you.

Please let me know if I can assist you further.

Jake C.
Player Care Ace
Ultimate Poker"

So, they still mistook my original question as a problem with my program working. But that is not important. The only problem I have is that I am in California and am not allowed to play there yet!

Thanks for the update.
 
A

A9ofHearts

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I am so pleased to see this. It is too bad you do not know if someone complained or if PS caught them cheating. Or if it was simple collusion or a form of multi using. I cannot blame them for not clarifying it, however; as soon as word gets out some clever little thief will simply find a way to slither around the rules.

I also got an email from a site I contacted and asked about it. It is this kind of attention that will keep the OLP industry on the up-and-up. This is important if we want it legalized.

"Jake (Player Care)
Jul 14 03:57 (PDT)

Heya Michael,

Thanks for fighting the good fight out there. I wanted to give you a quick response on what I know right now.

We don't allow any kind of remote access software. I don't know exactly what kinds of detection process we have, but I do know that people email us in with problems playing, and once we take the remote access software off their computer, they are able to play. I've even got a little macro button that spits out programmed information to people with these programs.

It looks like this:
(Any program that allows remote access or control of your computer will prevent Ultimate Poker from running. If you have any of the following programs, or other programs with similar functionality, they must not be running when you try to run Ultimate Poker:

TeamView
Remote Access
Remote Desktop
GoToMyPC
LogMeIn
VNC

Without realizing exactly what the program does, many people have one of these or similar programs installed on their work laptops so their computers can access an office network while on the road or to receive assistance from IT remotely.

If this doesn't ring any bells and you're still having trouble, let us know so we can assist you further in troubleshooting exactly what is causing this problem.

This should resolve the issue; however, if you continue to encounter any problems, please do not hesitate to contact us further. )

I hope this answers some questions for you.

Please let me know if I can assist you further.

Jake C.
Player Care Ace
Ultimate Poker"

So, they still mistook my original question as a problem with my program working. But that is not important. The only problem I have is that I am in California and am not allowed to play there yet!

Thanks for the update.

I think most of us are having that problem right now lol
 
NateVest

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Very disgusting that some people would stoop to this level. Karma will always come back to bite them even harder in the long run and I hope whoever cheats gets what comes to them. Just another reason to have Federally regulated online poker in the US. I hope the cheater in the contest got knocked unconscious with the ban hammer. My favorite saying is "Don't have to cheat you to beat you".
 
X

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have seen a mass amount of the same people in freeroll tourney on fulltilt if u suspect anyone just send a screenshot and a list of names to the site for them to investigate
 
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In mtts, unless the cheat is lucky enough to get his players on the same tables, then he has little advantage. His odds on cashing with 5 entries in 1 MTT are no better than playing 5 similar MTTs at the same time. If he does get players on the same table then any softplaying can be quite easily identified.

In SNGs, the same group of players registering continually registering for games quicky raises red flags.

Also, someone who spends so much time attempting to find ways to cheat, often spends little time improving their own game and as such is exploitable.
 
snklzona

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In mtts, unless the cheat is lucky enough to get his players on the same tables, then he has little advantage. His odds on cashing with 5 entries in 1 MTT are no better than playing 5 similar MTTs at the same time. If he does get players on the same table then any softplaying can be quite easily identified.

In SNGs, the same group of players registering continually registering for games quicky raises red flags.

Also, someone who spends so much time attempting to find ways to cheat, often spends little time improving their own game and as such is exploitable.



Yes if that much time and effort was spent honing their skills instead of finding a quicker easier method than winning through skill they would not need to cheat...although we all have faults I am very thankful that one of mine is not an urge to cheat...for me I do want to increase my finances but a large part of the enjoyment of winning for me is the knowledge that I went up against so many others and came out victorious...good luck all fellow CC members...
 
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I had money refunded the other day from PS. Money I thought I had lost fair and square on a Zoom table. They implied there had been cheating, they did not say how.
Impressive work from PS.

But how is it even possible to cheat in Zoom? Surely must be very hard at least longer term?
 
ElPorito

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I asked Ultimate about this (the windows remote desktop). I was told that the software just simply will not work on any computer that has any remote access program installed on it! They sent me a list:

Team View
Remote Access
Remote Desktop
GoToMyPC
LogMeIn
VNC

If you have one of those programs installed, do not expect ultimate to work!

This makes me feel better. I thought as much, just was not 100% certain.

Remote Desktop ships with your Windows installation. Hence it would mean that anyone on windows wouldn't be able to connect to their client.

I also don't see how one person would manage to connect to 5 remote pc's using windows remote desktop. It's not possible to open multible connections with the App. There is others that would allow it but Windows Remote Desktop doesn't have an option to log into multible computers at a time.

I can see your concerns though if one would sit down on a 6-max SnG with 3-4 accounts it's GTD $.
 
Last edited:
T-Dubs82

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Many of you might be aware of the kerfuffle that occurred here this week. Someone (who shall remain nameless) who wanted to win the $100.00 CC was giving away for guessing the day and time we hit 100,000 members created xx number of false "new" signups. Distasteful, and thank goodness Dakota-xx was on the job to stop it.

i knew some scumbag was gonna try to rig the 100,000 member contest. why must this person "remain nameless" OP? this person should be outed for their despicable actions!!! who was it
 
AugustWest

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Virtual machines would prolly get around the Ultimate Poker screening software............
 
Michael Paler

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Remote Desktop ships with your Windows installation. Hence it would mean that anyone on windows wouldn't be able to connect to their client.

I also don't see how one person would manage to connect to 5 remote pc's using windows remote desktop. It's not possible to open multible connections with the app. There is others that would allow it but Windows Remote Desktop doesn't have an option to log into multible computers at a time.

I can see your concerns though if one would sit down on a 6-max SnG with 3-4 accounts it's GTD $.

You can have it installed, just not running. And laptops are cheap; a cable connection and 5 of them to operate 5 away computers could see one very busy person looking at 6 out of 9 hands at a table, in theory.

Yet since the program cannot be running on those away computers, you are correct; they cannot do this. Thank Goodness. If you can play 20 tables at once on one computer, you could manage 5 laptops playing one game.
 
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