roger perkins
Visionary
Bronze Level
Im talking about the major players not the small fly by night sites. Why would say pokerstars care who wins or loses? I will try and counter any claims you can make. Maybe I can or maybe I cant we will see.
After seeing yet another online poker is rigged thread I want to ask this WHY?
hugh blair
Legend
Bronze Level
Forget about poker hands played for the minute as a lot of this is just a mixture of variance or human error such as playing tired tilted or bad control of bankroll or whatever.
Lets imagine we both play 1000x $100 games heads up and win 500 each for example we both lose a lot of money but the house wins that is the rig.
Rake seems to be rising constantly the last couple of years on different sites especially for micro players it is getting nearly unbeatable for a bigger percentage of players,
The amount of losing players on more and more sites year after year has to be rising regardless of how the cards fall.
Lets imagine we both play 1000x $100 games heads up and win 500 each for example we both lose a lot of money but the house wins that is the rig.
Rake seems to be rising constantly the last couple of years on different sites especially for micro players it is getting nearly unbeatable for a bigger percentage of players,
The amount of losing players on more and more sites year after year has to be rising regardless of how the cards fall.
roger perkins
Visionary
Bronze Level
agreed the house makes so much money honestly why would they try and rig it and ruin a good thing.
KristaK
Visionary
Silver Level
hi hi everyone!!! :ciao:
brilliant poker pro & teacher evan jarvis say this, when i query if: is it all a huge scam & rigged....
"In poker the best hand will not always win, even in many of the most favorable situations the best hand is an 80% favorite and not 100%.
Randomness determines who will win, and while the software is the place in which the randomness happens, it is not choosing one player over another.
The key with this issue, of anger, of disappointment, or feeling things are rigged against you is to evaluate your level of entitlement.
If for whatever reason you think you deserve more, to win all the time, to do better than others, then you are experiencing entitlement which is unhealthy and doesn't serve you.
If however you accept the reality that everyone wins their fair share of hands, and just as often as they will get lucky do to will you, then you can play from a healthy place. If entitlement is in your game, it's better to address this before playing more poker.
When you have unrealistic expectations about how often or how much you should win, you will usually end up experiencing disappointment which can lead to beliefs that the game is rigged against you because your mind is trying to rationalize/justify your position that you should win."
magnificent answer to this question, you agree?
brilliant poker pro & teacher evan jarvis say this, when i query if: is it all a huge scam & rigged....
"In poker the best hand will not always win, even in many of the most favorable situations the best hand is an 80% favorite and not 100%.
Randomness determines who will win, and while the software is the place in which the randomness happens, it is not choosing one player over another.
The key with this issue, of anger, of disappointment, or feeling things are rigged against you is to evaluate your level of entitlement.
If for whatever reason you think you deserve more, to win all the time, to do better than others, then you are experiencing entitlement which is unhealthy and doesn't serve you.
If however you accept the reality that everyone wins their fair share of hands, and just as often as they will get lucky do to will you, then you can play from a healthy place. If entitlement is in your game, it's better to address this before playing more poker.
When you have unrealistic expectations about how often or how much you should win, you will usually end up experiencing disappointment which can lead to beliefs that the game is rigged against you because your mind is trying to rationalize/justify your position that you should win."
magnificent answer to this question, you agree?
roger perkins
Visionary
Bronze Level
Yes random is random and AA may get beat 4 times in a row but the numbers will always fall into a standard range over time. If your hand wins 80% of the time it will over the long run win 80% of the time. I love the people that think a site making millions would care who wins or loses. The site wins it wins everytime a rake is paid.hi hi everyone!!! :ciao:
brilliant poker pro & teacher evan jarvis say this, when i query if: is it all a huge scam & rigged....
"In poker the best hand will not always win, even in many of the most favorable situations the best hand is an 80% favorite and not 100%.
Randomness determines who will win, and while the software is the place in which the randomness happens, it is not choosing one player over another.
The key with this issue, of anger, of disappointment, or feeling things are rigged against you is to evaluate your level of entitlement.
If for whatever reason you think you deserve more, to win all the time, to do better than others, then you are experiencing entitlement which is unhealthy and doesn't serve you.
If however you accept the reality that everyone wins their fair share of hands, and just as often as they will get lucky do to will you, then you can play from a healthy place. If entitlement is in your game, it's better to address this before playing more poker.
When you have unrealistic expectations about how often or how much you should win, you will usually end up experiencing disappointment which can lead to beliefs that the game is rigged against you because your mind is trying to rationalize/justify your position that you should win."
magnificent answer to this question, you agree?
I
Ishnock
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I wouldn't say rigged.
It is programmed. This is what people are not understanding. Anytime something is based on a program there are going to be a lot of inconsistencies.
And each site has its own program. For instance, Betonline ,my favorite site to play poker on, even though I dislike the interface, provide card generation that is close to the equality of live play in my opinion.
The only thing I can win on ACR or intertops are some cash games. I never go deep enough in a tourney to win any real money. I've won some money, but nothing huge. Now, on Betonline, I go deep into tourneys all the time, and I just finished top 5 last night in a 1000.00 tourney, taking home some good cash for my bankroll. So I'm done playing on ACR , even though I love the interface. I see too many insane hand results, and a lot of players getting come from behind victories against very strong hands.
I play the same one on every site. What I've noticed is that Betonline has more fair results based on card strength. AA usually beats everything, and Number pairs don't destroy premium pairs. I rarely see any insane bad beats, or being saved by the river.
I perceive it the same way that I perceive television: The programming is going to be different on every channel. Some are going to have better content than others.
I would love to see the daily hand percentages from each site in regards to how cards do against each other for each hand in tourneys, cash games, sit and goes, etc. I guarantee you the numbers will be lopsided. That should be a mandatory rule for all poker sites.
However, they all have one thing in coming, AK is crap when you shove them.
It is programmed. This is what people are not understanding. Anytime something is based on a program there are going to be a lot of inconsistencies.
And each site has its own program. For instance, Betonline ,my favorite site to play poker on, even though I dislike the interface, provide card generation that is close to the equality of live play in my opinion.
The only thing I can win on ACR or intertops are some cash games. I never go deep enough in a tourney to win any real money. I've won some money, but nothing huge. Now, on Betonline, I go deep into tourneys all the time, and I just finished top 5 last night in a 1000.00 tourney, taking home some good cash for my bankroll. So I'm done playing on ACR , even though I love the interface. I see too many insane hand results, and a lot of players getting come from behind victories against very strong hands.
I play the same one on every site. What I've noticed is that Betonline has more fair results based on card strength. AA usually beats everything, and Number pairs don't destroy premium pairs. I rarely see any insane bad beats, or being saved by the river.
I perceive it the same way that I perceive television: The programming is going to be different on every channel. Some are going to have better content than others.
I would love to see the daily hand percentages from each site in regards to how cards do against each other for each hand in tourneys, cash games, sit and goes, etc. I guarantee you the numbers will be lopsided. That should be a mandatory rule for all poker sites.
However, they all have one thing in coming, AK is crap when you shove them.
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roger perkins
Visionary
Bronze Level
please clarify what you mean by programmed. Are you saying the outcome is predetermined? That if seat 1 has AKs and seat 2 has 78o and so on that the program will then determine what the flop should be?
Herkstwin
Legend
Bronze Level
I have the same question - "What do you mean by 'programmed'?"
All online sites are programmed! Computer programs/software are what makes the site functional. The program makes the interface you like or dislike. The program makes the cards appear from the deck, tracks the betting, the pots, the rake, and your bank account. That is my understanding of the idea of programming.
What I think you are implying by comparing your personal results on ACR and Betonline seems to be that ACR is deciding to deal the cards in a manner inconsistent with the random shuffling of cards, such that your big starting hands get beat by weaker hands.
Poker sites have to have their random generators certified by third party companies. The big ones have every reason to be legit. How could they benefit by systematically ripping off their customers? Enough people play with HUDs that they would very quickly identify any site that is dealing cards inappropriately.
Maybe I have you all wrong, so it would be good to see your explanation of "programmed".
I
Ishnock
Enthusiast
Silver Level
You answered the question yourself. Sites are based off software, and that software follows a script based on the computer programming of/or for that script. So there are going to be inconsistencies or actions that wouldn’t happen in or during live poker play, no matter how random the card generator is supposed to be, because it is a program. A program or software isn’t a live person, and programs can experience bugs, glitches, hacks, and can be scripted to do all sorts of things.
I work in the field of Fintech, where we sometimes have to write scripts for certain servers.
A card generator, regardless of its certification, will never be equal to that of a live person dealing cards. You have far more people who complain of bad beats with online play then live play.
I’m not saying it’s fixed, but due to it being a program, it will never be equivalent to that of a real dealer or live action. And just like all casinos’ slot machines don’t perform the same way, poker sites don’t perform the same way. Some being more tighter than others when it comes to card generation.
roger perkins
Visionary
Bronze Level
Ok Im a former programmer I worked for AT&T and IBM. Let me tell you one way I would write a simple poker program. I would create an array simply put it is like a box with 52 boxes in it. I would load that array with the 52 cards randomly by using a random number generator from 1 to 52 and assigning each card a number. That mimics a shuffle. Then I could either start dealing out the cards starting at any point I want or randomly select the slots I would choose the cards from. Done, totally random and it would be no different than a live dealer shuffling a deck and dealing the cards. Now what you are implying is after this is done my program makes some sort of decision if A then B. It doesnt, a random program has no decision points other than is the slot I just chose empty (I have already chose that card) or full. To make this example equal a live dealer, he has 52 slots to put those cards in thinking each card is in its own slot while sitting in the deck. He shuffles them randomly filling the slots he then deals them out accordingly.
If you are not tired of reading then yes I could write a program that specifically deals the cards one way and favors certain players or manipulates the cards according to a flop or players hold cards. But that would not be a random deal and that would not pass any certification criteria.
If you are not tired of reading then yes I could write a program that specifically deals the cards one way and favors certain players or manipulates the cards according to a flop or players hold cards. But that would not be a random deal and that would not pass any certification criteria.
Herkstwin
Legend
Bronze Level
Thanks for the clear explanation of how you would produce a random shuffle. The argument we often hear against your program is that an RNG is never truly random. In my opinion, an RNG is more random than a manual card shuffle in a casino or home game. I would go one step further and expect an RNG to be even more random than the auto card shufflers on some poker tables.
PokerStars takes your RNG a couple of steps further, producing random numbers with a variety of inputs, including player responses and actions!
It is clearly explained here in this 5 minute YouTube video:
Evan Jarvis
Legend
Platinum Level
I support you my brother Roger! :stoned:
If anyone gives you crap you tell them to watch this video!
hugh blair
Legend
Bronze Level
Will discuss the other side of the case good clip Evan since thread is all no not rigged so far lol,
I do not think hands are rigged but site rules and performance targets are tech problems are huge,
Anybody read the small print on all sites you play on?
Examples look at 888 and their update to their rules punishing those that withdraw?
Pokerstars update their software becomes very slow to start up lose blinds and does not respond properly to clicks anymore.
Anybody ever clear a $5 casino bonus lately anywhere?
Got 100s of these over the years never made the play through requirements once.
It is rigged by all sites to keep you depositing with the majority losing and playing they are businesses after all fair enough.
Some sites even charging 20% rake to micro players come on how is that fair or not rigged what chance has the little guy got in the long run against billion dollar businesses when this is the playing field in the long run?
Could go on and on forget individual hands people obsess about the variance in them too much not looking at their rake paid information think of the big picture where did those billions and billions of dollars come from that Evan discusses in his UTUBE post?
Shiny suck you in advertisements deposit $1000 get this and win up to $00000s meanwhile bled dry by rake and playing conditions afterwards.:laugh:
I do not think hands are rigged but site rules and performance targets are tech problems are huge,
Anybody read the small print on all sites you play on?
Examples look at 888 and their update to their rules punishing those that withdraw?
Pokerstars update their software becomes very slow to start up lose blinds and does not respond properly to clicks anymore.
Anybody ever clear a $5 casino bonus lately anywhere?
Got 100s of these over the years never made the play through requirements once.
It is rigged by all sites to keep you depositing with the majority losing and playing they are businesses after all fair enough.
Some sites even charging 20% rake to micro players come on how is that fair or not rigged what chance has the little guy got in the long run against billion dollar businesses when this is the playing field in the long run?
Could go on and on forget individual hands people obsess about the variance in them too much not looking at their rake paid information think of the big picture where did those billions and billions of dollars come from that Evan discusses in his UTUBE post?
Shiny suck you in advertisements deposit $1000 get this and win up to $00000s meanwhile bled dry by rake and playing conditions afterwards.:laugh:
Last edited by a moderator:
roger perkins
Visionary
Bronze Level
sounds like you are just complaining about the sites and your losing streak.Will discuss the other side of the case good clip Evan since thread is all no not rigged so far lol,
I do not think hands are rigged but site rules and performance targets are tech problems are huge,
Anybody read the small print on all sites you play on?
Examples look at 888 and their update to their rules punishing those that withdraw?
Anybody try to withdraw from Intertops lately the hoops you must jump through is insane?
ACR today connect disconnect all day long how do you compensate players for folding AA for example preflop at the bigger buy ins crazy.
Pokerstars update their software becomes very slow to start up lose blinds and does not respond properly to clicks anymore.
Anybody ever clear a $5 casino bonus lately anywhere?
Got 100s of these over the years never made the play through requirements once.
It is rigged by all sites to keep you depositing with the majority losing and playing they are businesses after all fair enough.
Some sites even charging 20% rake to micro players come on how is that fair or not rigged what chance has the little guy got in the long run against billion dollar businesses when this is the playing field in the long run?
Could go on and on forget individual hands people obsess about the variance in them too much not looking at their rake paid information think of the big picture where did those billions and billions of dollars come from that Evan discusses in his UTUBE post?
Shiny suck you in advertisements deposit $1000 get this and win up to $00000s meanwhile bled dry by rake and playing conditions afterwards.:laugh:
1.Anybody try to withdraw from Intertops lately the hoops you must jump through is insane? THAT IS WHY I DONT PLAY ON INTEROPS. I actually have freeroll money there but didnt want to go thru the hoops. The site is not rigged they in no way cheated me.
2.It is rigged by all sites to keep you depositing with the majority losing 95% OF LIVE PLAYERS LOSE MONEY.
3.Some sites even charging 20% rake to micro players come on how is that fair or not rigged LIVE TOURNAMENTS CHARGE BETWEEN 18 and 25% rake. Fact is online tournaments average about 10% is very reasonable
The rake that you are complaining about is the cost of business. At lower limits the rake eats you alive and the majority of casual players play at the lower limits.
roger perkins
Visionary
Bronze Level
Anyone that has played a lot of tournaments live and online can tell you they basically are the same card wise. Live is more fun because you get to read people and annoy people. You also get to make a lot of friends.
hugh blair
Legend
Bronze Level
roger perkins -
Some of these poker sites also have great positive things about them,freerolls refund players if shown tech issues for example maybe I am focusing too much on the negatives.
No not complaining about losing as am in profit overall this year just discussing some serious tech and policy issues I am experiencing on sites.
We are still in agreement the problem with this thread is rigged can mean two different things or the same thing depends on point of view really.
Live poker would definitely have point A too cost of business or rigged is the same thing too depending on point of view.
Profit for house the desired outcome guaranteed some might think point B too whether honest or dishonest would depend on peoples understanding of the rules though.
Think this is why rigged mega thread is nearly 50/50 in votes a site does not have to cheat you to be rigged just existing is enough to be considered rigged.
A,Rigged is defined as something in the proper order for use,
B,Rigged is something that is fixed in a dishonest way to guarantee a desired outcome
Some of these poker sites also have great positive things about them,freerolls refund players if shown tech issues for example maybe I am focusing too much on the negatives.
No not complaining about losing as am in profit overall this year just discussing some serious tech and policy issues I am experiencing on sites.
We are still in agreement the problem with this thread is rigged can mean two different things or the same thing depends on point of view really.
Live poker would definitely have point A too cost of business or rigged is the same thing too depending on point of view.
Profit for house the desired outcome guaranteed some might think point B too whether honest or dishonest would depend on peoples understanding of the rules though.
Think this is why rigged mega thread is nearly 50/50 in votes a site does not have to cheat you to be rigged just existing is enough to be considered rigged.
A,Rigged is defined as something in the proper order for use,
B,Rigged is something that is fixed in a dishonest way to guarantee a desired outcome
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roger perkins
Visionary
Bronze Level
You can actually say any business is rigged to extract the most profit it can from its customers. What I'm trying to say is it's not dishonest or rigged as far every customer should get the same random deal. It doesn't favor any customer but yes like any business it favors the business. But not dishonestly
O
Oxinthewater
Rock Star
Silver Level
The question of whether a site has any motivation to rig a game ,and whether they actually have rigged them are different and don't have to be mutually exclusive.
Pokerstars may well prefer recreational players who deposit more to do better (perhaps lose less quickly) in order to keep the ecosystem going.
That doesn't mean that they are actually doing anything to favour them because there are huge penalties if they were caught doing so.
FWIW's I think the cards at all the major rooms are fair and random, but if somebody had evidence to show otherwise then I wouldn't just dismiss it out of hand.
roger perkins
Visionary
Bronze Level
I would never dismiss any evidence however I have never seen any actual evidence but there are plenty of people that know it for sure. They cant actually prove it but they know it happens because they have seen it or at least they think they have seen it. If anyone has real evidence bring it forward I will listen.
roger perkins
Visionary
Bronze Level
Do you have any evidence? Or is it just what you think you saw?I tried to play on 888, it's been a long time since I laughed so much at the "randomness" of everything that happens, after the stars it's very noticeable.
veltins
Legend
Loyaler
Bad beats is a part of poker life. It does happen be it live or online. But long grind , reading , HH analyzing ultimately makes one top player. if we put the time and efforts then we will be surely one heck of a player. It all depends upon us, no point in complaining for losses
jordanbillie
Legend
Bronze Level
hi hi everyone!!! :ciao:
brilliant poker pro & teacher evan jarvis say this, when i query if: is it all a huge scam & rigged....
"In poker the best hand will not always win, even in many of the most favorable situations the best hand is an 80% favorite and not 100%.
Randomness determines who will win, and while the software is the place in which the randomness happens, it is not choosing one player over another.
The key with this issue, of anger, of disappointment, or feeling things are rigged against you is to evaluate your level of entitlement.
If for whatever reason you think you deserve more, to win all the time, to do better than others, then you are experiencing entitlement which is unhealthy and doesn't serve you.
If however you accept the reality that everyone wins their fair share of hands, and just as often as they will get lucky do to will you, then you can play from a healthy place. If entitlement is in your game, it's better to address this before playing more poker.
When you have unrealistic expectations about how often or how much you should win, you will usually end up experiencing disappointment which can lead to beliefs that the game is rigged against you because your mind is trying to rationalize/justify your position that you should win."
magnificent answer to this question, you agree?
This is a beautiful answer, and can be so beneficial to mental health. This can be applied to situations outside of poker, very well.
P
paintedbynumbers
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Bad beats are a part of life. Good quote. Many sites can easily fix the "is online poker rigged" by offering a bad beat jackpot. Some sites do this. the sites that do very rarely see a 1-2- outer on a river. They also rarely see Quads. Wonder why.
Pokerstars is an example of horrible software currently. I am convinced they use a SQL based server and set the action on high. Why would they do this? It helps get more people in hands and speed up tournaments. Ever notice A or K hit 9 flops out of 10? Ever notice that if an A or K doesn't hit that the board will pair itself? Not a coincidence.
People ask what do they have to gain. The answer is simple. Rebuys and more deposits. If you don't believe that these sites can track how often people deposit money you are kidding yourselves. Sure they may throw you a few bones, but if they know you are just going to rebuy or deposit anyway why wouldn't they rig it against you.
Someone mentioned the casino bonus. I have done the $10 casino bonus every day for the past 2 months with Pokerstars. 90% of the time I get the 25% bonus casino play. I play the bonus and have actually played through twice to actually make a profit. The funny thing is while I am playing through I can hit bonus after bonus. Once I am in the profit stage I don't hit the bonus at all. It's weird to explain. I will say though that the Pokerstars slots seem to pay a lot more than Bovada and other sites.
Pokerstars is an example of horrible software currently. I am convinced they use a SQL based server and set the action on high. Why would they do this? It helps get more people in hands and speed up tournaments. Ever notice A or K hit 9 flops out of 10? Ever notice that if an A or K doesn't hit that the board will pair itself? Not a coincidence.
People ask what do they have to gain. The answer is simple. Rebuys and more deposits. If you don't believe that these sites can track how often people deposit money you are kidding yourselves. Sure they may throw you a few bones, but if they know you are just going to rebuy or deposit anyway why wouldn't they rig it against you.
Someone mentioned the casino bonus. I have done the $10 casino bonus every day for the past 2 months with Pokerstars. 90% of the time I get the 25% bonus casino play. I play the bonus and have actually played through twice to actually make a profit. The funny thing is while I am playing through I can hit bonus after bonus. Once I am in the profit stage I don't hit the bonus at all. It's weird to explain. I will say though that the Pokerstars slots seem to pay a lot more than Bovada and other sites.