$1 SNG turbos - all in or fold???

Been playing a few of these lately and it seems almost that they are an all in or fold type game - 10 handed.

Not sure if anyone else is finding this?

If u get a hand like AK early, even if the blinds are 20/40 with stacks of around 2,000, u push all in and u get callers with Ax, KQ, KJ.

Or does it just seem that way???

How else can u play them?

Yes, I would push with QQ+ and AQ+ early when blinds are still low.

AK is actually a monster in these as you will almost always go all-in and get called by a weaker ace.

I think open shoving AK is ridiculous at this stage.

I don't believe you will get called by AT+ enough to make up for the times you run into AA or KK. Most of the time your going to be on the wrong side of a flip against TT-QQ.

Why would you pass up the edge you have in the later stages in the game with such a risky move? It makes no sense to me.

Raise it 3x. If you miss, cbet if it's HU and a good board to bluff at. If you get called, give it up.

Aldito said:

I think open shoving AK is ridiculous at this stage.

I don't believe you will get called by AT+ enough to make up for the times you run into AA or KK. Most of the time your going to be on the wrong side of a flip against TT-QQ.

Why would you pass up the edge you have in the later stages in the game with such a risky move? It makes no sense to me.

Raise it 3x. If you miss, cbet if it's HU and a good board to bluff at. If you get called, give it up.

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I know its not standard poker play, but I think u r wrong!!!

I have been playing this for some time now and if I get say AK at anytime I push. U start off at about 40 BB and after a very short space of time u r down to 20, 15, 11 etc.

early in these tourney I think a lot of people are prepared to gamble and if the lose move to the next game fast.

I`m finding they will call a push with any 2 suited, any ace, sometimes any one paint.

The nature of this format means u do not get a chance to play `properly` u get people calling to the death without pot odds but with one lone overcard. U need to shift these people out of the pot or get them to call against the odds, and they will

I have seen this alot also, ppl pushing early to try to get a advance in a tourney. It just wiae poker sence to play smart in these times and not let yourself make a bad move. Like somebody already said 3X the bb will usally get you though, but if the flop comes and you dont hit it up toy uo to either pusj for a buff or bow out

OK, I dont know that site specifically, but if you can get away with raising a decent amount - 3-6 BB depending on limpers and position - thats how I play the low stakes SnG on a few other sites. If you get al all in raise - or just a re raise - you can decide what to do depending on the raiser among others. But to put your stack all in so early with AK is just inviting the donks to come in and suck out. If you dont mind gambling at the low stakes then go for it, but I think you will be more profitable in the long run not doing it. If you are getting called by 3-5 players this is horrible. HU its a coin flip, maybe an ok call, but I try to play more ABC early stage even at these stakes. But it is always situational, and sometimes you know a player enough to push him (correctly) here.

In my 2010 post I mentioned that one of the most important things about Poker is making adjustments. I think you will certainly find games where pushing all in is the only way to ensure you don't get 5-6 callers. I don;t know if I would start with a shove though. I might tell you to start with 4x and then if that is not producing the isolation results you were trying for, you can raise it up to a bit more.

I understand the OPs frustration and I know that if I have AK I often cringe because I know that a standard play here is not going to produce the results we are looking for and that is to gt HU or play against maybe two villains.

What works in the high stakes games will often not work in micros. Just like what works at Full Ring may not be the correct play at 6-max.

Learn to adjust but don't forget to adjust back when you move up or down.

kmixer said:

In my 2010 post I mentioned that one of the most important things about Poker is making adjustments. I think you will certainly find games where pushing all in is the only way to ensure you don't get 5-6 callers. I don;t know if I would start with a shove though. I might tell you to start with 4x and then if that is not producing the isolation results you were trying for, you can raise it up to a bit more.

I understand the OPs frustration and I know that if I have AK I often cringe because I know that a standard play here is not going to produce the results we are looking for and that is to gt HU or play against maybe two villains.

What works in the high stakes games will often not work in micros. Just like what works at Full Ring may not be the correct play at 6-max.

Learn to adjust but don't forget to adjust back when you move up or down.

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I guess this is my point - just u put it better

My overall point in these kind of games is that if you make a standard raise, say 4 times the bb with AK (and I`m using AK as an example only) you will get lots of callers early on - any ace, any 2 suited cards, any connectors, etc) so u r in a multi way pot with Ace high - a place I for one do not want to be.

I am not saying that at a higher level I do the same - far from it. But tell me this, if u were given the opportunity of going all in with AK heads up against any hand other than AA/ KK, would you take it? Remembering, at worst you will be about 50:50 ?

As it happens, once I push all in and I turn a big hand, what then happens is people do start to respect your raises, so u r then back to raising 5 times the bb.

I also find playing these levels that when the blinds are 10/20 don`t raise 4 times bb = 80. You need to raise to take your bet to 120, meaning that they have to call three numbers (i.e. 100) as opposed to two numbers (i.e. 80)

It is all interesting stuff to me because due to a house move I pulled out lots of funds from my poker sites, meaning I had to drop to lower levels to stay within my bankroll. I`m more use to playing $5 - $10 SNG`s and u do notice a change in play

people just don't seem to have the patience to play poker. I wouldn't push because AK isn't the best to be playing in a multi-player pot all in. throw it away and play it in another situation

sheesho said:

people just don't seem to have the patience to play poker. I wouldn't push because AK isn't the best to be playing in a multi-player pot all in. throw it away and play it in another situation

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Throw it away? I think you mean if pushed??. I am betting AK anytime if facing limpers, first to act or one bettor in the pot making, say 3-4 BB, I am pushing him here.

Push with Ak or higher..To many chances somebody will call your raise to 90chips with 910 suited and hit 2 pair and have u will either have to fold AK or be shafted with your Aces.

Good luck at the tables

thaats a good poker term lol I agree with that saying.....jus gotta play tghe cards the best u can
dont fear the pot reaper

sheesho said:

people just don't seem to have the patience to play poker. I wouldn't push because AK isn't the best to be playing in a multi-player pot all in. throw it away and play it in another situation

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Not being funny here, but it is not a patience issue and if u r going to be patient in a turbo SNG u will lose, IMO.

My point is, in the same way as it is a good idea `sometimes` to limp from early position with AA in any poker game, I have found out that it is also a good idea early in one of these $1 SNG turbos on Party to push all in with a strong hand.

omg.. this thread looks like a big fail to me... but then again, maybe it's a good thing. I mean it's a good thing if players are playing poorly at the tables right? So why would I want them to play differently??

The thing is.. if you're open-shoving AK in early levels, it's like playing your hand face-up.
As mentioned above, you must make adjustments for your table.

As a guideline, if I was in a situation in early levels of a micro sitting with AK, I'm likely to shove if the size of the pot = ~20% of my stack.

Since its turbo I would advise u to push with hands like AQs,AKs,AA, and KK because the blinds will catch up to you and the buy in is little so there will be some donks who will raise and call with anything so its an easy way to double up early.

manofthehour said:

the buy in is little so there will be some donks who will raise and call with anything

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Does anyone see the irony in this statement?

I love some of the posts here. The honest people saying "Yep, I would shove" and the other `pros` "No, I would fold AQ to a reraise, wait, get a read on my opponents, then start to play"
At $1 levels you are playing against a lot of recreational players who if they call an all in with A8, are up against KK, they think they have made a great move if they catch an ace. We are talking 3 min blinds here, get real!!!
I would love to play the pros at this level. By the time u decide to make a stand, I`m sitting with 1/2 the chips at the table and u have around 12 bb left - and I`m still pushing with 88+

Ronaldadio said:

I guess this is my point - just u put it better

My overall point in these kind of games is that if you make a standard raise, say 4 times the bb with AK (and I`m using AK as an example only) you will get lots of callers early on - any ace, any 2 suited cards, any connectors, etc) so u r in a multi way pot with Ace high - a place I for one do not want to be.

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good, you should want callers with inferior hands.
Sounds like you don't trust your post flop skills ?

PlayerPlayerAA said:

good, you should want callers with inferior hands.
Sounds like you don't trust your post flop skills ?

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What I`m saying here is that you could be the most skilled player in the World, but if people have a massive calling range and to make it worse there are a few of them, any flop could hit them.

To clarify.
I push all in `early` in these games and then `late` when the blinds are up.
I don`t just push with AK - it could be a lot of hands. Depending on position and if the pot has been raised or not it could be any hand A9+ or 88+
And finally and most important, it works.
The purists do not like it, frustrates the hell out of them when I push with A10, they call with AK and I catch a 10 on the flop

So, in essence - the `good players won`t call early without AK, AA, KK, QQ (cause they are so good they don`t need to ) the bad players call with lots of holdings and I`m winning doing this - so I don`t give a damn !!!

Ronaldadio said:

The purists do not like it, frustrates the hell out of them when I push with A10, they call with AK and I catch a 10 on the flop

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Lol at you being proud of shoving junk and outflopping better hands. That's definitely profitable long term.

And do you not see the irony in what you're saying? You say open shove early with eg. AK, because a donk will call with AX(AT for example).

No one who is any good at SNGs will deny that shoving wide is profitable, but only late in the game, when blinds are a significant percentage of your stack.

In a turbo tourney you only start with 50bbs. Before you know it you have 30 then 20 ect.

I used to have over a 20% ROI over 1000 games playing $2.25 turbos at FT getting it all in PF with AK, AQs, 10 10+. It didn't matter if it was me raising 3bb's and getting 3bet then shoving, calling one AI, calling 2 AIs or whatever. This used to be the way I played, and I am staring to think this may be a correct way.

When I came back to playing after a while I thought I would try to play the "proper" way and my ROI has dropped to less than 5% for my last thousand or so. I also noticed my win rate was much higher and my ITM was a little lower before. That is my main reason for switching mainly to ring games.

AK is a monster in a turbo as long as you can get the chips in PF. You absolutely crush range of hands that will call you at these lower levels + you have fold equity so how can you go wrong? If you end up getting knocked out then you just saved yourself a half an hour of grinding. If you double up you have many more options on how you will play the mid-game and will lead to you making it to the bubble with a chip lead more often.

If you're not gonna do it in the first 2 levels, I think would almost be wrong not to past level 3 unless you are deep(40bb+). This isn't deepstack ring game play. Once you're getting down to 30bbs or so there is just not too much room for post flop play.Or else how in the hell would a bad post flop player like me have a positive ROI if that wasn't the case? Unless you get lucky and pick up a pot or two the you will be down to less than 30bbs within 10 hands or so.

I think I will start playing these again just to see how this works out for me.

Aldito said:

Lol at you being proud of shoving junk and outflopping better hands. That's definitely profitable long term.

And do you not see the irony in what you're saying? You say open shove early with eg. AK, because a donk will call with AX(AT for example).

No one who is any good at SNGs will deny that shoving wide is profitable, but only late in the game, when blinds are a significant percentage of your stack.

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Oh Lord!!!

My point is, and please listen this time. `Proper` players won`t call an all in push unless they have a monster - correct play. "you always need a better hand to call with than raise with" and all that.

However, by the time they decide to make a stand I am sitting with more than double their chip stack (or I`m out). So I push with A10, they call with AK. I`m about 30% to win. They hit, they return back to their shell, I have the same stack as them. I then make my next decisions based on the table dynamics.

However, if I hit (so about 1:3) the rest of the table start to think "This donk will call with anything" What then happens, unless they have a monster, is you get a walk on your big blind and you can start to raise 3-5 times the big blind, then c bet on the flop. They will fold either way cause of fear.

BTW, I know all this because I was the person on the receiving end until I decided to loosen up