tracking stats with bovada

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wardy

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so as a US player I've decided for better or worse I'm going to play at bovada. all things considered, I'm placing more emphasis on customer support and the consensus seems to be that bovada is at the top for the US.

I've played on the merge and revolution networks as well and as I mentioned in my intro. post I was able to check out PT4. I'm less concerned with having a HUD but stat. tracking is definitely something I would prefer to continue doing of course.

after searching..
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/poker-software-tools-61/best-poker-tracker-software-bovada-208563/

.. it looks like my options are pretty slim (unless I'm missing anything else?)

Stat. tracking and hand analysis are really what I'm most interested in and I'm not too sure how much holdem indicator caters (what?) to these aspects.

I suppose I might as well ask about hand conversions too. is ace poker solutions the best option as of now?
 
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I use Bovada HH Converter from Ace Poker Solutions. It takes the Bovada HH, and will convert it to a format you can then import into PT or HM, and then you will have stats, graphs, and can do hand reviews, etc. And being able to see the mucked cards is a nice added bonus.
 
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wardy

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So do you think I should go that route? I really like PT4 and don't know much about holdem indicator. As long as its a painless process I think I'll just do that
 
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I almost broke down and bought the Holdem Indicator when i first started playing on Bovada. i was going through HUD withdrawl. But now that i've gotten used to playing without one on there, i don't really mind it. And now that i got the Bovada HH converter , i'm pretty happy just being able to see stats, graphs, and do reviews. And i think overall you would probably be happier with PT4 or HM2.
 
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wardy

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yeah to be honest that's my thought process. holdem indicator just makes it seem like you don't even need to think about what you're doing, as if you're just going through the motions. although the HUD was nice, I only had it briefly. I understand that it can obviously be beneficial but right now I'm much more concerned with focusing on the action every single hand as opposed to potentially distracting myself with such a huge amount of information. I actually like the fact that the tables are anonymous because it forces me to focus on each hand even more, which is what I should be doing (especially right now) anyway.

definitely satisfied with just being able to track my progress and being able to go back, review and analyze the moments that require attention.

speaking of which......
 
masondub

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Quick question on these HUD's.. Are they allowed by the poker sites? Obviously it is a dumb question because i know so many people use them...

But i would just like some clarification as to what the rules are? what sites allow them? and are some banned on certain sites?

If someone could give me some info that would be nice. Cheers!
 
Acesinthebig

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online poker has evolved so much, but I love Bovada, just for the fact that it is anonymous. It feels more like poker was meant to be. Online poker, isn't poker anymore. It's some weird mutation, involving complex algorithms and equations. What happens when you go play live? No HUD there.
 
BlackMoth5

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Personally, I like Bovada and Carbon Poker the best. Carbon poker offers freerolls everyday and you don't have to deposit to play in them!
 
Acesinthebig

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I use Bovada HH Converter from Ace Poker Solutions. It takes the Bovada HH, and will convert it to a format you can then import into PT or HM, and then you will have stats, graphs, and can do hand reviews, etc. And being able to see the mucked cards is a nice added bonus.

there you go all you # cruchers
 
PokerTracker

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Online poker has evolved so much, but I love Bovada, just for the fact that it is anonymous. It feels more like poker was meant to be. Online poker, isn't poker anymore. It's some weird mutation, involving complex algorithms and equations. What happens when you go play live? No HUD there.


Every player has a built in tracking system when they play live, you naturally and instinctively track your opponents and estimate their ranges based on frequency of actions. Human beings are programed to remember other humans and in some ways their their action, that is natural. Human beings are not programed to remember screen names, which makes playing online much more complicated, it requires frequent note taking. PokerTracker makes the online experience more like a live experience through the creation of stats. We regularly admit that the stats are just a mathematical representation of memory, they do not really tell you how your opponent is playing, but the use of multiple stats together can help you create an opponent profile to estimate how your opponent might be playing... this is the same thing we humans do instinctively when playing live. (Did you know that you can take notes while playing in a live game in Las Vegas? This is basically the same thing that PokerTracker does, except we automate it for you). The HUD is just a tool to help recreate that live experience, and in turn help you to play more tables if you chose to- which is good for the network because that increases player liquidity, game choices, and rake yield for the poker room. We work with all of the poker rooms we support fairly closely to make sure our software is compatible. Even bodog.... once they launched the anonymous tables (Bodog 4.0) we complied with their request submitted to our management team 10 months earlier to leave the network once the new client was released. A few months later they contacted us again to explain that they had a change of heart, they wanted us to start supporting Bovada hand histories again but we declined because their hand history format changes the rules of the game by providing the hole cards for every player at the table, that is no longer poker.... it is not something we wish to support.

PS: This may seem crazy coming from us but using PokerTracker will not make you a better player, it is only a tool, in the end on you can help yourself to become a better player. Its like a trading desk for stock traders, 100% optional, and a trading desk doesn't make a trader any better than he already was, it is only a tool to help them come to a decision using fewer manual methods.

PPS: Live poker is not anonymous.
 
Acesinthebig

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Every player has a built in tracking system when they play live, you naturally and instinctively track your opponents and estimate their ranges based on frequency of actions. Human beings are programed to remember other humans and in some ways their their action, that is natural. Human beings are not programed to remember screen names, which makes playing online much more complicated, it requires frequent note taking. PokerTracker makes the online experience more like a live experience through the creation of stats. We regularly admit that the stats are just a mathematical representation of memory, they do not really tell you how your opponent is playing, but the use of multiple stats together can help you create an opponent profile to estimate how your opponent might be playing... this is the same thing we humans do instinctively when playing live. (Did you know that you can take notes while playing in a live game in Las Vegas? This is basically the same thing that PokerTracker does, except we automate it for you). The HUD is just a tool to help recreate that live experience, and in turn help you to play more tables if you chose to- which is good for the network because that increases player liquidity, game choices, and rake yield for the poker room. We work with all of the poker rooms we support fairly closely to make sure our software is compatible. Even Bodog.... once they launched the anonymous tables (Bodog 4.0) we complied with their request submitted to our management team 10 months earlier to leave the network once the new client was released. A few months later they contacted us again to explain that they had a change of heart, they wanted us to start supporting Bovada hand histories again but we declined because their hand history format changes the rules of the game by providing the hole cards for every player at the table, that is no longer poker.... it is not something we wish to support.

PS: This may seem crazy coming from us but using PokerTracker will not make you a better player, it is only a tool, in the end on you can help yourself to become a better player. Its like a trading desk for stock traders, 100% optional, and a trading desk doesn't make a trader any better than he already was, it is only a tool to help them come to a decision using fewer manual methods.

PPS: Live poker is not anonymous.

I know your just a sales man (and a good one) but thanks for the well thought out response. You make some good points.

You say that an HUD is "mathematical representation of memory" but hardly anyone and maybe no one can analyze and break down stats like a HUD does.

This is my main concern about it. It costs money and you need a decent computer, so for people who don't have the means it would be hard for them to utilize the software, therefore making it a very uneven playing field.

When you are playing live, you are so right that we all possess a computer and we are constantly taking notes, but no actually takes notes and the live game entails a certain amount of feel. Having a HUD takes away the feel of the game. True you can play a lot of tables, and that might be a whole other topic. Here's an idea instead of playing 16 tables 25nl, play 1 table at 400nl or 2 tables of 200nl, or fine you want to cut down on variance , play 4 100nl. My point is then your not a robot and your actually playing your game.

OK, and so it might make you make better decisions, but what if in certain situation it doesn't. What if it does the opposite. Just my crazy mind. If I'm a nit and I give off that image, I'm going to bluff at huge pots and use your HUD against you. This could work in other circumstances too. And I know it can pull from a very large sample size but still.

I may be way off, does any of this makes sense? I'd like to here from other people too.
 
ovitoo

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Yes, you're way off.

I know your just a sales man (and a good one) but thanks for the well thought out response. You make some good points.

I'm pretty sure he/she is a support rep and not a sales rep. Would explain why he/she is running a PT support thread here. (and I'm just a salesman btw)

This is my main concern about it. It costs money and you need a decent computer, so for people who don't have the means it would be hard for them to utilize the software, therefore making it a very uneven playing field.

It's quite a worthy investment if your goals are worth investing in. I run it on an Acer laptop (aka junk) with minimal problems. Also, if you want an even playing field, play WAR.

When you are playing live, you are so right that we all possess a computer and we are constantly taking notes, but no actually takes notes and the live game entails a certain amount of feel. Having a HUD takes away the feel of the game.

You said yourself that you're capable of taking notes, mental or written. What's realistic about being stripped of your notes or mental recollection of a player (Bovada)? As well, I don't think PT's gonna dumb down their software bc the avg person can't take immaculate notes.

True you can play a lot of tables, and that might be a whole other topic. Here's an idea instead of playing 16 tables 25nl, play 1 table at 400nl or 2 tables of 200nl, or fine you want to cut down on variance , play 4 100nl. My point is then your not a robot and your actually playing your game.

Playing 16tbls at 25nl > a 400nl or two 200nl table(s) for obvious reasons. As you said, variance.

OK, and so it might make you make better decisions, but what if in certain situation it doesn't. What if it does the opposite.

It actually does cause you to make the "wrong" decision on a daily (probly hourly) basis. I use "wrong" loosely, since we both know its a game of odds.

His/her response was pretty spot on imo.
 
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Acesinthebig

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ok good points, I guess I should try to learn more about it
 
RDB

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Quick question on these HUD's.. Are they allowed by the poker sites? Obviously it is a dumb question because i know so many people use them...


HoldemManager and PokerTracker follow the Terms & Conditions of the pokersites, only supporting pokerclients that actually allow the 'tracking' software.

There are some sites that don't allow software. But sites also completely change their position. CAKE for example didn't allow it in the past--> but now does. BODOG did allow it in the past--> and now doesn't.

Allowing tracking software, attracts a different player pool. Allowing it attracts sharks, multi-table playing regulars, rakeback grinders, etc. Cake now welcomes this type of player. (the network grew significantly when they allowed software). Bodog has publicly stated: they prefer "fish playing against other fish" (losing players playing vs other losing players). They don't want winning regulars that consequently withdraw winnings from the site.

Some ipoker skins are just banning winning players.

So in other words, some sites don't like it (and are tracking software 'unfriendly') while others welcome it and actively communicate with HoldemManager and PokerTracker to ensure they're supported.
 
nabmom

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PS: This may seem crazy coming from us but using PokerTracker will not make you a better player, it is only a tool, in the end on you can help yourself to become a better player.
+1

Sorry to derail but this is part of the reason that I love PT4. This philosophy and willingness to be honest about what tracker software can and cannot do is something that seems to be part of every interaction I've had with PT4 staff.
 
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Imho poker software should not be allowed. Poker Tracker or Holdem Manager etc...do not have my permission to use my info which they are doing without players permission.
 
ovitoo

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Imho poker software should not be allowed. Poker Tracker or Holdem Manager etc...do not have my permission to use my info which they are doing without players permission.

It's public info. Grab a pencil and paper, you can do it too.
 
Jd0ubl3M

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I try and get a stat report going for bovada with my stat poker App on the cell phone
 
PokerTracker

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Quick question on these HUD's.. Are they allowed by the poker sites? Obviously it is a dumb question because i know so many people use them...

But i would just like some clarification as to what the rules are? what sites allow them? and are some banned on certain sites?

If someone could give me some info that would be nice. Cheers!

PokerTracker follows the Terms of Service for every site we support, additionally we approach the site (or network) to create a working relationship with them. We speak regularly with every site we support with the exception of iPoker (they send us emails when its critical but they don't respond when we email them). It may surprise you to learn that all new sites actually pay for support in PT4, the cost is only to cover our development overhead, we do not make a profit on new sie development. Long story short, if we support the site, then it is allowed within the sites terms of service to use PokerTracker or other equivalent tracking tools (like HEM).

While we are on this topic, I can bring up a good example of a site which has terms of service which allow PokerTracker when read by a lawyer, but the site has never responded to our outreach - that site would be PKR. We have the technology ready to add PKR support to PokerTracker, but we will not do this without their explicit permission. Hence, PKR is not supported by PokerTracker but someday we will support them if they decide to speak with us and allow us to do so.
 
PokerTracker

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Imho poker software should not be allowed. Poker Tracker or Holdem Manager etc...do not have my permission to use my info which they are doing without players permission.

Our software is just an interface that the end player uses, PokerTracker does not have access to the hands that you have played, we do not have central database servers - all data is stored on your opponent's local computer and they cannot share that data with anyone else.

Hand Histories are owned by the poker room, the end user is given a license by the poker room to use the hand histories stored on their local computer for personal use only. This means you can use these hands for personal review, you can share a small portion of the hands on a forum to discuss your play, but you cannot sell or give away the contents of your database to another player because you do not own the hand histories. This is the real reason why purchasing datamined hands is in almost all scenarios breaking the law, because the datamining companies rarely have the right to sell those hands. It is also the reason why pokerstars was able to block hand mining companies such as PTR - they were using the intelectual property of PokerStars without their permission.

Anyway I digress.... back on track. So since the end user has permision from the poker room to use the hand histories for personal use, that means they can enter that data into a personal tracking tool such as PokerTracker for personal review. Part of personal review is also information about the hands that they played where you were involved, it is impossible to erase the opponents from the hand history, the live poker equivalent doesn't exist (can you imagine erasing an opponent's play from your brain's memory?). This is the reason is why you cannot opt-out of personal tracking, but you can opt-out of tracking sites that resell data, such as sharkscope. The two business models are night and day different, there is no correlation.

Let me know if you have any further questions, we will be happy to answer.
 
PokerTracker

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+1

Sorry to derail but this is part of the reason that I love PT4. This philosophy and willingness to be honest about what tracker software can and cannot do is something that seems to be part of every interaction I've had with PT4 staff.

Thanks... we are honored that you shared this opinion! Not everyone appreciates our honest style, but we fel it is in the best interest of the players in the long run to be as brutally honest as we can be. Honesty is the best policy!

PS: We added your quote to our home page today as our little way of showing our appreciation.
 
nabmom

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PS: We added your quote to our home page today as our little way of showing our appreciation.

Cool! Where can I see it? I just went to the home page (not sure if it was the right home page) and I only see a quote from Ben Lamb. Not to brag, but I am much cuter than Ben!
 
PokerTracker

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Cool! Where can I see it? I just went to the home page (not sure if it was the right home page) and I only see a quote from Ben Lamb. Not to brag, but I am much cuter than Ben!

The quotes rotate randomly. You can see a screenshot of the home page here: http://www.screencast.com/t/Bt414g38s

2013-03-04_08-31-41.png
 
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aa88wildbill

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I like playing at Bovada, And as far as the HUD goes I don't really use them. After all you can use them when playing live. Their crutch, you are better off standing on your own, if you can.
 
aa88wildbill

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Speech recognition program is messing up this morning, change can to can't
 
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