PTR while playing??

There was a thread about this about a month or so ago-it's fine. People were worried the poker sites were spying on them and a lot of people freaked-now they say it's okay.

Oh, Okay cool. I read somewhere around here that its against T&C of some sites. I think it was in one of the tutorials in the golden archive. Irregardless, I shall not worry about it henceforth.

With the tracker you are getting info on people that you are playing, with PTR / sharscope, etc, you get info not collected by you.

Same like hands histories that are not collected by you.


Fulltilt still have forbidden use PTR when playing.

Not Permitted During Play

The following classes of programs are not permitted while playing on Full Tilt Poker:



2. Programs or services that provide additional information on opponents that a player would not normally be privy to:
Certain programs, websites, and subscription services provide extra information on opponents which may not be used during play. For example, the use of shared databases of tournament histories, results, and statistics are not permitted. Specific examples include:

• SharkScope
• Top Shark
• Smart Buddy
• Poker Table Ratings

So, no, is not allowed.

That a lot use it is another thing.
------

Stars have sharscope also forbidden when you play, i don´t see PTR any where, so i guess is ok in Stars.

Some examples of tools and services which are prohibited only while PokerStars is running are:

1. Holdem Advantage
2. Holdem Radar
3. ICM Poker
4. Insight Poker Hound*
5. Limit Hold’em Pre-flop Hand Advisor by Intellipoker
6. Poker Player Database
7. PokerAnalytics
8. Pokerazor
9. Pokerbility
10. PokerKant
11. PokerStrategy ICM Trainer
12. PokerZion No-limit Advisor
13. SAGE Decision Calculator
14. SharkScope (including SharkScope HUD)
15. Short Stacking Strategy Calculator
16. Sit n'Go End Game Tools
17. SitnGo Wizard (v1.0.1.162 and older)**
18. SNG Power Tools
19. Spade ICM
20. StoxEV
21. STT Analyzer by PokerSoftware Tools

This list was last updated July 31st 2010.
* PH Stars (a compliant version of Insight Poker Hound) is permitted
** SitnGo Wizard version 1.0.1.163 and later is permitted



This list was last updated July 31st 2010.

Wow i had no idea. I used to use sharkscope all the time while playing at pokerstars till i found topshark (which gives you more searches for free account) so now i cant even use this when i play FT. How is it illegal though since its available to anybody that wants to use it. How do they even punish you for using such sites.

It's easy for them to know how some people are using it...

Because some people are stupid enough while playing to not only look the data up, but then berate people in chat for their bad stats while they are playing

Copy...paste...email to FTP, and that's how they find out

Thats such nonsense. What good is PKR if im not gonna use it while playing. It might as well not exist.

Sure, i can look u up after the tourney is over but we might never be involved in a hand again.

Its useless if not used while playing imo.

I'm sure that is exactly how Full Tilt sees it. All of those sites that offer subscriptions and sell hand history are making money off of it, for doing next to nothing other than tracking all of the tables. Not only that, but in real life you cant go back and look at a history of the plays a person made - unless you write them down. You can track and take notes of all of the hands in a live game and figure the stats the same way that trackers do..

Although Full Tilt cant do a thing about players who download hand histories from any of these sites for their their database huh? Thats a shame. =/

I'm wondering - I've done this taboo act a few times.. I'd better just go check and see what the repercussions are in the TOS cause I don't want to get frozen or anything..

The easy way around this is to use another computer to lookup villians while you are lpaying. I agree 100% that this information is useless before and after a game unless you are seeing enough regs.

Just get the info from your smart phone they cant trace that.

I think some clarification is in order, just so everyone realizes what the terms state vs what may or may not be enforced.

FullTilt: disallows it while playing. The terms are spelled out in the post above, so I won't repeat.

PokerStars: disallows it ANYTIME. Even while not playing. It's on their full-time prohibited software list.

PS breaks out software that is only prohibited while playing, e.g.

Some examples of tools and services which are prohibited only while PokerStars is running are:

...a list of stuff...

and also software that is prohibited at any time, e.g.

The following are examples of tools and services which are prohibited at all times:

...another list of stuff, including...
Table Ratings aka Poker Table Ratings

They go on to distinguish further between the two lists, and also specify the measures they take and the consequences:

Q: Why are there two lists of prohibited tools? What is the difference between them?

A: The first list details tools which are prohibited at all times. None of these tools may be used on your computer, even if not installed on the machine, and even if you do not use them in conjunction with the PokerStars client. PokerStars will take active measures to detect these tools and will take punitive action against players who have them (see 'What steps are you going to take...' below).

The second list details tools and services which may not be used in conjunction with PokerStars or while the PokerStars client software is open. We recognise that these tools have legitimate uses - perhaps for analysing your game or tracking your results - but we feel that they cross the line of what is acceptable for use during play. PokerStars will take measures to detect these tools and will issue warnings to players using them. PokerStars will also work with the developers of such tools to assist them in complying with the rules.

(all of this was just now grabbed from the PokerStars FAQ on Prohibited Software, so it's not old info)

Now, that said, is it enforced? It used to be, and then the privacy whiners complained. Which is stupid, because it's in their TOS that they reserve the right to monitor your systems and detect illicit poker software/sites. They don't reserve the right to snoop on your passwords or your Quicken data, or anything else -- they just look for illicit software and/or site access while their client is running.

This is no different than PunkBuster and some of the other anti-cheat detection software that many PC games employ (they scan your HDD for known cheats and blacklist you from playing, even when you're aren't running the cheats), so I don't know why so many people got their panties in a bunch over this "privacy" concern. I hear it likely had a lot to do with some UK/Euro privacy laws that are extremely strict about such things, and I guess to keep from fighting those and bringing even more negative publicity to online poker, PS at least announced "unofficially" that they won't enforce it. IIRC a PS official made that statement in a 2p2 post, where this was being discussed a year or two ago.

I always caution people, though, that because it's still in their TOS, they can "officially" choose to start enforcing it at any time. So if you're going to use it, at least be smart about how you do it. There are numerous ways to access these sites that are undetectable if you know what you're doing.

As an aside, and I think I posted about this a few days ago somewhere here, a member on DTB recently took them to task for posting links to the PTR results for their coaches. Obviously DTB does this to demonstrate the credibility and ability of their coaches. However the result was that anybody who clicks that link to be taken to PTR, has just technically violated PS TOS. Hunter Bick, DTB CEO, at first responded that they had a good relationship with PS and went on to say that PS only disallowed it while playing. After it was pointed out to him that it's actually on their "always prohibited" list, Hunter came back and acknowledged that he didn't realize that, then announced that PTR results would no longer be linked on the coach bios. Instead they will now use screenshots of the PTR pages for each coach.

So obviously DTB were concerned enough about it that they didn't want to risk running afoul of PS by encouraging people to access PTR. Which is understandable given that they had at least one PS sponsored coach on the site with a PTR link, lol.

I don't use any other programs when playing other than my brain. One of the reasons I don't, is because it gives me direct feedback into my play. I play live a lot and don't like playing a different game online than I play live. I would not call it cheating...but it is not entirely skill either.

I hate to break this to you, but online play will always be a different game than live. Always.

I'm not speaking specifically about PTR, and certainly not about illicit software or bots that are considered cheating, but about the typical "live mentality" prejudice against all poker software, namely tracking software and HUDs. The use of such software does not make online poker different. Online poker makes online poker different.

Software fills gaps in online play that aren't an issue in live play. The most obvious being physical reads on your opponents. But just as important, if not more so, is the ability to track and analyze your own play. It's relatively simple when you're seeing 20 hands/hour in a live setting with the same 8 or 9 guys to remember the big pots and questionable hands, to replay them in your head or write them down in a notebook (the live equivalent of tracking software, and allowed everywhere) to think about if/where you or the opponent went wrong. When Gus Hansen was up and coming, he carried a tape recorder and dictated the outcomes of hands, player notes, and whatever else came to mind. He'd even get up from the table to walk away to a quiet area to dictate. These recordings served as the basis for his book, Every Hand Revealed.

But it's another thing entirely when you're seeing 100-200 hands/hour online against dozens of random people that you have no reads on other than bet sizing and timing tells. There is no other practical way to both track opponents and your own results, compared to software. But this goes back to the same pointless arguments against poker software by people who really don't understand how it's used, or why online poker is a different game than live.

If you're really so married to the ideals of live play that you can't tolerate any deviation from that in online play, then I believe you should probably avoid online play. And vice versa, of course.

And to imply that use of any software indicates a lesser skill than live... all I can say is LOL. That's a level, right? Most would argue that skilled online players are far and away more skilled than their equivalent-stake live players. And the vast majority that aren't in the nosebleeds playing against the same 20 guys are using, or have been using, software.

This is one of the situations where I would like a user-based rating system. =D

I had a warning once from pokerstars for using Sharkscope. I have never been warned for using PTR on stars. I use it regular.

It is insane for the rooms to bully people into not being able to check the history or their players. get real.

PokerStars prohibits the use of datamining websites at any time. However, they have explicitily stated that the only action they are willing to take is to ask people to stop using these tools through the Chat Moderator program. Their main focus is centered around making it more difficult for datamining sites to collect information in the first place. That is our problem, not yours

Full Tilt Poker allows users to browse datamining sites when not actively playing on a table. Even if you use PTR while playing, there have been no reports of permanent bannings or money confiscations. However, we strongly discourage insulting other players by mentioning their PTR stats. In rare cases, you might get a warning email from support to tell you to stop using the software.