ICM Calculator for calculating final table chops

#1 17th November 2011, 7:42 AM

Yes I did try the search feature on the forum before starting this thread.

Question: What ICM Calculator do any of you use for calculating final table chops? (ie. like on PokerStars seeing as their Admin. won't chop with ICM).

Last night I went on a couple sites & tried out two of them to calculate a final table chop (a table I was railing that a CC member was on - - a micro table on Stars, 3 players left). I ended up getting different numbers from each of the calcs. & thought this was pretty odd (yes I punched in the #'s correctly - prizepool/chipstacks). So.. I'm wondering which one to go with &/or what ones you folks use.

#2 18th November 2011, 4:53 AM

Anyone?
The ones I was using are chillin411 & icmcalculator (dotcom)

#3 18th November 2011, 10:17 AM

Hm, odd. Shouldnt be too hard writing one yourself.

Perhaps one is numerical, and one is mathematical.

edit: For just 3 people I dont think you really need any calculator. Its easy enough to do the calculations in your head.

#4 18th November 2011, 4:35 PM

Use chillin411.

#5 19th November 2011, 2:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by only_bridge

edit: For just 3 people I dont think you really need any calculator. Its easy enough to do the calculations in your head.

Really? So when the adrenaline's flowing & you got couple/few players discussin' chat, it's easy enough to work out ICM chop numbers? (it's not always gonna be with 3 players obviously either)
I figured it'd easier to just plug numbers into the calc., & hit 'calculate'?

tks Wizz.

#6 19th November 2011, 2:25 AM

It baffles me that PS still don't offer an ICM calculator at the final table and stick with chip/chop. Main event of WCOOP and they don't even offer the players ICM deal, just put a chip/chop out there to start discussions with.

I just type in ICM calculator and use one off the internet that comes up on google.

#7 19th November 2011, 9:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

Really? So when the adrenaline's flowing & you got couple/few players discussin' chat, it's easy enough to work out ICM chop numbers? (it's not always gonna be with 3 players obviously either)
I figured it'd easier to just plug numbers into the calc., & hit 'calculate'?

tks Wizz.

Well, yes you are right. When you are 4 players or more you probably want an ICM calculator to not have to think about it.

It would be interesting to see the two different results you got from the two different calculators.
Perhaps its just a numerical fault that got magnified.
There are some famous cases when that can happen pretty fast. Like the Vandermonde matrix or the Hilbert matrix. Or when you have tiny decimals.

#8 19th November 2011, 1:23 PM

I assume the inaccuracy was in the decimal places? Otherwise you must have input something wrong.

I know chillin's works fine even though it's not a maintained webpage anymore.

#9 19th November 2011, 3:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by only_bridge

For just 3 people I dont think you really need any calculator. Its easy enough to do the calculations in your head.

I don't think that most people could do it in their head, even for 3 players. Here's the example from a thread that chillin411 links to.

Quote:

So, you have to calculate your ICM expected value (EV) for three situations: if you were to fold, if you were to call and win, and if you were to call and lose. We will ignore splitting the pot in this situation since it will occur less than one percent of the time. I'll address splitting the pot in the next article.
We will start with the first situation. If you were to fold, the button would still have 2000 chips, you would have 3700 chips, and the small blind would have 4300 chips. When you enter these numbers into the calculator, it will output the ICM value of 0.3482. If you were playing a $10+1 buy-in tournament, you'd have an expected value of $100*0.3482, or $34.82, with that chip stack against those other two chip stacks, specifically. In other words, in the long run, you'd expect to win $34.82 on average if you were put in this exact situation every time. Not bad, eh?

Now, let's calculate the second and third situations. If you call and lose, the math is very simple; you would end up with 0 chips and 3rd place, or an ICM expected value of 0.2000. When you multiply this number by the prize pool, you end up with $100*0.2, or $20 in the long run, which is the payout for 3rd place. If you call and win, you will have 8000 chips, and the button will have 2000 chips. When you punch this value into the ICM calculator, the calculator outputs a value of 0.4600.

What's the expected value of calling? QQ will win 56% of the time versus AK. We can figure these percentages out using the help of an odds calculator. So, 56% of the time, we'll have an ICM of 0.4600, and 44% of the time, we'll have an ICM of 0.2000. So if we average this out, we have (0.56*0.46)+(0.44*0.2) = 0.3457.

This gives us a EV of calling at 0.3457, and an EV of folding of 0.3482. So, the more optimal play is to fold your QQ. If we wanted to quantify this, at a $10+1 tournament, the difference between the two decisions on average is $100*(0.3482 – 0.3457), which is equal to a quarter. A quarter doesn't sound like much, but that is an increase of your ROI by 2.3% by folding instead of calling in this situation every time.

You're suggesting to do that in our head?

#10 20th November 2011, 9:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WiZZiM

I assume the inaccuracy was in the decimal places? Otherwise you must have input something wrong.

I know chillin's works fine even though it's not a maintained webpage anymore.

I typed in the numbers 'exactly' the same into each of the two I tried using (one was Chillin411, the other was at icmcalculator (dotcom). It was while railing a newer CC member while they were on final table of a micro turbo MTT... they chopped at final 3 (so I compared the chop they were discussing, & was commenting on the guy's 'rail' thread while they were making the deal). Numbers came out different which I thought was pretty f'n odd?
I'll just stick with Chillin411 I guess.

#11 20th November 2011, 3:51 PM

It would seem that the obvious thing to do would be to run the same numbers through a couple of different calculators and see if you can 'prove' that one is more accurate.
You haven't provided the figures or results or I would have had a go myself

#12 13th February 2012, 8:10 PM

You can use this online icm calculator for MTT final table chops:

http://www.pokericmcalculator.com/ic...#icmcalculator

You can display results in dollars or fractions for your convenience.

Results are the same as chillin, (and most other icm calculators except icmcalculator (dotcom)) although user interface is cooler I believe.

And yes icmcalculator (dotcom) produces wrong results.

#13 19th February 2012, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Q__

And yes icmcalculator (dotcom) produces wrong results.

And I guess there ^ is my answer.

I'm a tad nervous to click on the link seeing as it's your only post on here. Guess I'll google search it. (tks for posting).

#14 20th February 2012, 3:05 PM

No problems. Program is called ICMIZER and you can find quitea lot of information about it in internet I guess.

I created it so if you have any questions send me a pm.

#15 20th February 2012, 5:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Q__

No problems. Program is called ICMIZER and you can find quitea lot of information about it in internet I guess.

I created it so if you have any questions send me a pm.

Welcome to CC.

Link seems fine BTW.

#16 21st February 2012, 8:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Q__

No problems. Program is called ICMIZER and you can find quitea lot of information about it in internet I guess.

I created it so if you have any questions send me a pm.

Do you play the pokerzz? What type > Sng? MTT? MTT-SNG?
What motivated you to create an icm calc.?

#17 21st February 2012, 9:05 PM

I have been playing poker professionaly for some years, but last year mostly been developing ICMIZER.

Here is my chart from 2008 for example

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