Bodog HH

Any way to save them? I want to review hands but they are not being saved. I read once a while ago about a tool that does it, but cant remember what it was called, or if it even works under the new set up at Bodog, now that trackers are no longer allowed.

On a side note, how many bodog players multitable, and how many? I find with more than 3-4 w/o a tracker, I get pretty lost.

Last time I played at Bodog (1.5 months ago) PT3 worked fine without any 3rd party poker tools.

I believe HEM requires IdleMiner (~$50). I have no idea what works currently though.

Yea, WV is right, for HEM you need IdleMiner because HEM actually listened to Bodog when they said that they didn't want software to mine HH's and PT3 didn't

As far as multi-tabling... Bodog really isn't the site for it. Unless they've changed it recently, the most tables you can play at a time is only 4, so it's really crap compared to other sites that allow you to multi-table a more respectable number.

aha. I have HEM so thats why. Hmmm, bummer. idleminer 50$? na, if I cant do more than 4 I am ok w/o tracker anyway. uhhh kinda......

Thanks guys!

Still a bummer that I cant save my own games for my own review........

Oh bodogbecky...where art thou?????

I wouldn't pay $50 for Idleminer's Bodog Grabber now anyway. When PTR bought Idleminer, they pretty much abandoned the software. When Bodog went on their anti-HUD/tracker crusade awhile ago, they broke Idleminer's grabber and it was months before it was barely made to work again, and I don't think it works again now or doesn't for everyone. There are tons of disgruntled and unhappy Idleminer customers on 2+2's software forum that complain about it not working.

HEM has implied recently that they're reconsidering their stance on Bodog. They had nearly completed their own handgrabber but voluntarily ceased development/release upon Bodog's request. I think they wanted to maintain good relationships with all the card rooms (for instance, as they've done with Cake who agreed to let them continue working on their site as long as they disabled certain functionality). But PT3 seized upon the competitive opportunity by blowing off Bodog and continuing to grab hands. In light of Idleminer's virtual abandonment by PTR, and a number of HEM customers complaining, HEM may well be reversing their decision before long.

I don't play much on Bodog but did luck out that I have a Hold'em Indicator license from years ago -- it was the first poker "software" I ever owned and got it free for a cardroom signup (Sportsbook I think, back when they were Cake). It's a far cry from a full tracker, but it does support Bodog and at least maintains session stats on your opponents, plus now it has a rudimentary HUD (which I haven't tried to use, I just watch the stats).

PokerTracker is a very responsible company within the poker community, we always operate within the TOS of the various poker sites and networks we support. The Terms of Service for Bodog allows personal data collection of your own hands on tables that you are playing at, in turn PokerTracker continues to support Bodog. Bodog's TOS does not permit datamining of their data - this is a rule of the Bodog service that is respected by PokerTracker.

From what I am aware the Idleminer Hand Grabber was a datamining tool, therefore it may not comply with the Bodog TOS. Additionally Idleminer is owned by PokerTableRatings which has been accused of datamining the Bodog network against its wishes. Bodog's recent campaign is to halt dataminers, the use of PokerTracker for personal tracking of your game is not included in this sweep.

Thanks for the official response, and I'm glad to see some PT representation on CC. Now if we could just get a HEM rep...

As far as Bodog's TOS, you're right -- trackers and HUDs have never been formally banned, and pretty much all sites forbid datamining and purchased HH's. So officially there isn't a difference in that regard between Bodog and the other sites (except Cake which as you know is very restrictive in that regard).

However months ago (and I'd have to try and dig up those threads to quote specifics), Bodog was on an obvious mission to stop the use trackers/HUDs. Their representatives said so themselves. Their position was that trackers/HUDs were used by top players who were driving off the casual players (i.e. fish) who felt there was an unfair advantage (bollocks, we all know, but that was their position). It was essentially -- if not literally -- said that they were more concerned about keeping their casual poker players happy because of their casino/sportsbook operation, and were willing to disfranchise the small percentage of winning poker players in the process. Despite the fact that the regular grinders (well, such that you can "grind" on Bodog with its multi-table limitations) most likely to use trackers/HUDs typically generate more rake than your casual player, they made it sound like one winning reg was enough to frustrate X number of fish out of the site and thus the overall rake loss across poker/casino/sportsbook was even greater. Whatever, but this was the last nail in Bodog's coffin for me, and until just recently I stopped playing there completely.

Around that same time, HEM was near completion on their internal Bodog grabber, and Bodog changed something that broke it. As I recall, HEM reached out to Bodog (as they do with other sites and I expect PT does as well), and Bodog basically asked them to stop development of it. HEM complied, apparently led to believe it would become an official policy. I had also read somewhere, and it was logical to assume whether true or not, that they had asked PT to cease as well. HEM users routinely threw this back at HEM support (especially post-BF when US rooms dried up), complaining that they couldn't use HEM with Bodog without spending another $50 on Idleminer's grabber, which eventually stopped working reliably itself. And when Idleminer's grabber quit working, some HEM users defected to PT3, while others who preferred to stay with HEM actually went so far as to use PT3 sans HUD as their Bodog grabber while pointing HEM at the converted HH's and using it as their tracker/HUD.

The fact Bodog never updated their TOS to reflect these stated positions on trackers/HUDs was often pointed out and questioned, including by me. It's been awhile so I can't remember specific quotes or the representatives who stated them, but there was certainly an implication that the TOS would be changed "soon" to reflect their position. The fact that it hasn't by this time, combined with other second-hand comments I've seen around the poker community, leads many to believe they've softened their stance a bit on this. Which I expect is why HEM is also reconsidering theirs.

EDIT:

A quick search through Calvin's blog includes mention of a release they made just last week. While primarily targeting datamining and results reporting operations like SharkScope, PokerScout, and the like, rather than trackers, they nevertheless clearly indicate their priority of casual player over pro player which was the same spiel they were giving against trackers/HUDs awhile back:

http://calvinayre.com/2011/09/21/pok...data-blocking/

Oh, and to be clear, I don't of any of us who support datamining. I fully support Bodog and all other sites' crusade against datamining. But prohibiting individual tracker usage is going way too far.

More digging around on Calvin's site. Bodog really does seem to be going after ANY sort of data tracking. I found the following quotes from this interview regarding their new "Recreational Player Model." Yes, they actually have an official business strategy called that, which seeks to protect casual players from the sharks.

Emphasis is mine.

It isn't clear when he said "block all player tracker software" if he meant strictly datamining site software or personal tracking software as well. But given their very clear attitude towards "winning players," it's not hard to read between the lines and infer that they have no interest in supporting PT3/HEM and HUDs either.

I posted a comment on the other article I linked to in the previous post, asking for clarification on their stance regarding personal tracker software. It's awaiting mod review, who knows if it'll be posted or if I get an answer.

Bodog Becky, if you happen to see this, can you get us a more clear answer?

EDIT: Ahah, found something directly from Calvin himself that lumps personal tracking software in with datamining. LOL at Hold'em Indicator being "datamining" software. It's strictly amateur compared to PT3/HEM, so that tells you what their opinion is on the subject.

http://calvinayre.com/2011/01/06/pok...-online-poker/

LOL at all of this. They are talking like this is going to get everyone playing there just because no one will have tracking software. All this is going to do is kill the already small amount of traffic that Bodog has even more. Apparently they are in the business of catering only to micro and low level players, who will make them the least amount of rake. I can't see how this and sports betting could possibly result to a bigger cash flow than if they opened up to people who will play some higher stakes and bring something real in regards to rake in.

I wonder if they will take away the notes feature as well, because you know, we don't want anyone to have any information on previous opponents.

In November Bodog is expected to launch a new network and poker client, when it is released we will address any reasonable changes required at that time. We will continue to monitor this thread, and answer questions as they come along, we are here to participate with the Cards Chat community and help in any way we can.

FWIW I agree 100%

can someone see that BodogBecky reads this????

Well what do you know... not only did they post my question, but I got an answer from none other than Jonas Ödman, the Bodog VP interviewed in the link and quote I posted above.

So it's a "grey area" but tracking your opponents will likely be blocked as well, as I suspected.

I think it is clear what they are going to move toward. I think they are moving toward either a random number/character combination that will change every time that user sits at a table, or no actual displayed username at all. I remember hearing about Cake talking about this a couple years back. That would make it impossible to keep tabs on your opponents, in every way, but you could still see your own stats.

Yeah, for years Cake has blocked opponent tracking in 2 ways: obfuscating opponent names in HH's (so that my player name would appear as d*******8), and by allowing players to change their player names every week or more. The obfuscation approach doesn't defeat screen-scrapers, however the legitimate trackers (well, I know HEM has) have worked with Cake to agree to not screen-scrape opponent names. HEM captures opponents as Player 1, Player 2, etc, allowing you to track your own stats and review your play against these anonymous opponents, without being able to track their stats.

Some other tools however may not be so cooperative with the sites, and I don't see how screen-scrapers could ever be truly blocked unless they obfuscate/remove names on the table and chat as well, so that you basically never know who you're playing with. This would also prevent you from taking notes on your opponents though, and I've not seen them mention that they're going that far.

Yea, I knew that Cake was doing that, I just remember hearing about them taking it even further as to kind of what I was saying above, could've easily been hearsay though.

As far as them truly anonymizing everything to the point where you couldn't even take notes... why wouldn't they? From everything I've heard from Bodog for the last couple weeks, they truly aren't looking to gear towards the type of player that cares about succeeding in poker, so I don't see them having a problem with taking away every little tool available. Or they could have notes, but they clear at the end of your session or when that player leaves the table.

Maybe I'm lucky Bodog does not have freerolls any more. I have no BR there, and can not build one from 0. From what I glean Bodog, and MMOG are seeking the occasional weekend drunk kid who can log in, deposit and blow $20 every now and then.

Hell, for the cost of putting up with excess commercials, I can play at Zen, without depositing anything. And FWIW, I received a payout from Zen exactly as stated by Zen (Hustler and others). Club WPT makes free play nearly incomprehensible, so I won't bother with them, but the Bodog model doesn't look any better than the Facebook or Zen model.

Not liking what I am sensing as the Bodog model. There are many many free online games within a social atmosphere, but I prefer poker, and want to take the game seriously. Bodog seems to be working toward excluding even the serious poker hobbyist, let alone wannabe pro.

I'm sure I'm fairly alone in saying this on a poker forum for pretty serious card players, but I actually like these policies. It gives back the fun of playing to me. I am not "serious" I've made some money playing online, but I am not playin for a living. I enjoy the strategy of playing a tournament where the only info they have is what they see you do. Using that image to make moves. It isn't nearly as fun for me to already know someone's habits and exploit them with ease. Where is the challenge? Building a strategy to be profitable from that information is a challenge, but it isn't as interesting to me.

So, I thank Bodog for keeping the game interesting to me.

I run tournament indicator on Bodog but rarely even look at it. I can take as good of notes as they can and can be more accurate. I don't see why it would be that big of a deal to the pros. If they truly are superior players, then why would they need it? You can't use a dataminer for live play, so when you do play live after using a crutch like that, you may become the fish.

I've responded to this sort of comment so many times by now that I refuse to be drawn into another. I should save my argument in a text file so I can just cut & paste it every time.

Suffice to say that you -- like virtually all who make such claims and attempt to draw parallels to live play -- really don't understand tracking software and how it's used. It's not about datamining, which virtually none of us support. And if your sole frame of reference is Hold'em Indicator, then it's not surprising, as that is hardly a tracker and I would agree is hardly better than note taking (although when multi-tabling it is better than nothing).

So I guess that means that since holdem indicator is not considered a tracker even though it's tracking the players, then it is permitted right? I can see why some people would need to play more than 4 tables at a time considering the fact that since black friday, the tables that are filling up now are lower stakes, so why not just go to a B&M casino. A couple of pros' videos I watched wasn't using anything and are turning a nice profit. When multi-tabling, do you really have time to look at the trackers?

Hold'em Indicator was one piece of software Bodog specifically mentioned trying to defeat, although them calling it "datamining" software is ridiculous.

Multi-tabling (well, more than 4-6 tables) is actually one of the biggest reasons to use a HUD. That's where virtually all of your reads come from. Using a HUD at micro stakes is mostly an exercise in futility, but the tracking side is still useful for analyzing your own game. Which a lot of people don't seem to get -- there's far more value in using a tracker to analyze your game than to just see other player's stats, especially when you're starting out.

When you're at the nosebleed stakes where everybody knows everybody already and have the skills to put players on ranges without even trying, then trackers/HUDs are also less useful. For everyone in between the micros and nosebleeds that are semi-serious about the game, they're super important.

Excellent, I would love to stay with the Dog. The site and support have always been fine by me, and Becky was a good contributor and helper here (get her off the party poker circuit please so we can hear from her again).
Have not been there recently because have other site commitments. If Dog ever disables my PT however, I will withdraw and move elsewhere. No hard feelings, but I think the Dog will suffer by crippling personal trackers, We shall see... I stay tuned...

I agree. I have accounts at a number of sites, and am starting to multi table and increase my volume. I find myself only at pokerstars anymore. I am probably gonna withdraw at dog and others and play only stars. If I could multi table with my HEM at other sites I would. (Yea, I know there are a couple but its a bodog thread, and pokerstars always has the traffic...))

Yep I miss Poker Stars here in the US. It was always one of my favorite sites. Maybe some day it will come back to the US markets. However, alot of the trackers didn't work there either. Don't remember which ones.

I'd be curious to know which trackers you're referring to, because any tracker/HUD that mattered or was known at all worked fine with Stars, and still does. Stars has always been very cooperative with personal tracking software and HUDs.

yep. I am on pokerstars 4-5 days a week with HEM and (lol, like this is news) it works like a charm.

I'd almost be willing to put money on that they were unregistered downloaded cracked copies of the softwares that were outdated

I don't remember which one it was. I do remember that in sort of worked on some of the operating systems. May have been poker edge, but it was so long ago and I didn't know chit about poker back then let along any trackers lol.

looks like this whole thread I must have missed somehow and feel kinda silly for posting a new thread about my trouble with PT3 and getting it to work with Bodog. I just got off the phone with someone on their support staff and they told me they do not allow the use of PT3 on their site. Unfortunately for me I had just bought my PT3 just a month or 2 before Black Friday hit, I will not play at a sit that won't allow PT3, goodbye Bodog.

Not so bad, they used to be the site to beat for bonuses and customer support. They are still very good but I have had a few issues with them in the past 3-4 weeks and their customer support has somehow changed. Now they don't read your emails in their entirety, they just give a pre-written response.

search bodogbecky and let her know about this.