Your thoughts on opponents??

#1 10th April 2011, 8:28 AM

I play MTT and SnG but this question pertains primarily to SnG play, however, any opinions are welcome, but if your comment concerns MTT play, please specify that if you would.

I uses the Search Player function a lot, and I can see where the other players are playing - if they are not blocked. I am developing a habit of categorizing players depending on what I see, and want to know your thought and how y'all see this as well.

For example I see any single or 2 table players as a non threat. (I play 5-6$ SnGs). I do check again in many cases, but they usually dont add tables. I see anyone playing multiple games formats the same, like on STT and MTT and/or freeroll games, or, especially, if they play cash and STT/MTT at the same time. Or if they play turbo and reg speed at the same time. All they types I will consider dumb and fishy until they give me reason to think otherwise. Your thoughts on this?

I do see players who play mixed buy ins, but like maybe 3-4 tables at 6.50 and 3-4 at 11. These players are hard for me to categorize, using only this info. Any thought about this type of play?

I am just trying to get some kind of read on unknowns based on their # of tables and simultaneous game selection. I rely much more on what I see them do and HUD stats, but before I have any of that info, if I find myself in a situation where I have to make a decision, sometimes this is all the info I have, so in that case I put them in category "fishy" if they fit the profile I mentioned in paragraph 3 above.

#2 10th April 2011, 8:43 AM

As far as using 'find player' I almost always do. At the stakes you play(I play also) you can get many reads. Most players loading more than 10 tables are winning players. These are the ones to do the Sharkscope on. Usually they are real nitty at this level and have low/break even ROI. They have leaks and it's your job to find them now. They are happy to treat poker like a widget factory mass producing them at a penny a pop. What I mean is they play very robotic and are easy to take advantage of if paying attention.

Players who play two or more are all going to be looked at too. As far as a one tabler being no threat, this is what I consider them until proven otherwise.

As for the ones with mixed BI's I don't know WTF they're thinking. I'm guessing fishy till proven otherwise.

If you move up to the $12's at FTP it is a different story. Most and I mean most of the regs who load up 10+ tables are solid players. A whole different situation.

That's my take on it.

#3 11th April 2011, 6:23 AM

I tend to agree that you can assume a player mixing game types is fishy until proven otherwise. I'm not quite so quick to write off someone who's only playing one or two tables, but I'll agree that the majority of solid players you'll find are playing more than that.

Mixing buy ins is a little different. Again, I wouldn't be too quick to write them off, I think in many cases they'll be players who are on the cusp of moving up and are mixing in their new and old stakes during the transition. I've done it occasionally and I've read others on here doing the same.

At this level anyone playing 4+ tables is probably a straightforward reg until proven otherwise.

#4 11th April 2011, 4:48 PM

^^^ This is why I threw in the caveat "until proven otherwise."

#5 11th April 2011, 8:34 PM

i have been playing alot of different cash game types..and let me tell you there are terrible players in all of them..i can't find a stake where there isn't that donk player who will call every bet with small pr and hit river to win..it's killing me..

#6 11th April 2011, 9:18 PM

I don't assume that players who are only playing 2tables in sng's are weak necessarily... there are quite a few recreational players who don't play alot of tables (fulltilt) & who have great results (decent ROI). I do consider it though but place more emphasis on their track record ('results').

#7 11th April 2011, 9:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fletchdad

For example I see any single or 2 table players as a non threat. (I play 5-6$ SnGs). I do check again in many cases, but they usually dont add tables. I see anyone playing multiple games formats the same, like on STT and MTT and/or freeroll games, or, especially, if they play cash and STT/MTT at the same time. Or if they play turbo and reg speed at the same time. All they types I will consider dumb and fishy until they give me reason to think otherwise. Your thoughts on this?

I do see players who play mixed buy ins, but like maybe 3-4 tables at 6.50 and 3-4 at 11. These players are hard for me to categorize, using only this info. Any thought about this type of play?

I am just trying to get some kind of read on unknowns based on their # of tables and simultaneous game selection. I rely much more on what I see them do and HUD stats, but before I have any of that info, if I find myself in a situation where I have to make a decision, sometimes this is all the info I have, so in that case I put them in category "fishy" if they fit the profile I mentioned in paragraph 3 above.

I don't always assume someone who is playing one or two tables as a fish. However, If I do see someone multi tabling 10+ I think "Ok, they have to be good, to a degree" which of course isn't always the case. Look at me for example haha.

I don't agree on thinking of if someone is playing STT or MTT + a cash game and turbos then normal speed. Most definetly do not agree with that. I see many of good winning players mix up their games. STT/MTT/Turbo/Standard quite a bit, not so much cash too though, that's quite rare I see that. However, I see Spacegravy often enough grind STT's/MTT's/MTT'SnG's of turbos and regualr speed all at once which is quite a normal grind to him and on some occasions I've seen him mixing in 2-3 cash tables too. I also see Nanonoko playing MTT's/CASH games at the same time. If you're generalising in terms of people at your table then again, I don't think I can agree on that.

I myself prefer standard speed games SnG's but they fill up soooo slow that I have to play the majority of turbo games, but will mix them up no problem.

In general though, I assume someone mass multi tabling more of a "threat" than someone playing one table for example as I assume they have sort of good knowledge in poker and ICM etc.

#8 11th April 2011, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ramdeebam

.

I don't agree on thinking of if someone is playing STT or MTT + a cash game and turbos then normal speed. Most definetly do not agree with that. I see many of good winning players mix up their games. STT/MTT/Turbo/Standard quite a bit, not so much cash too though, that's quite rare I see that. However, I see Spacegravy often enough grind STT's/MTT's/MTT'SnG's of turbos and regualr speed all at once which is quite a normal grind to him and on some occasions I've seen him mixing in 2-3 cash tables too. I also see Nanonoko playing MTT's/CASH games at the same time. If you're generalising in terms of people at your table then again, I don't think I can agree on that.

I myself prefer standard speed games SnG's but they fill up soooo slow that I have to play the majority of turbo games, but will mix them up no problem.

In general though, I assume someone mass multi tabling more of a "threat" than someone playing one table for example as I assume they have sort of good knowledge in poker and ICM etc.

In reg. speed SNG if there's a player mass-multitabling I don't consider them a threat as they'll usually play solid but also fairly predictable.. & find you can find good spots vs. them in early-mid.levels (ie. 40/80).

Have you been on tables with SpaceGravy often? I think when you're referring to micro players then yes, they usually are on the fishy side if they're mixing in diff. types of games (if you're talking about SNG's). In MTT's (on FTP) alot of MTT regs. also mix in the 45's 'reg' & some >the 90ko's.

#9 11th April 2011, 10:40 PM

I have found the 1-2 tablers are not always bad -- they are the ones considering each play, thus tougher to steal against. Multitablers are pretty easy -- if they call a raise and an A flops, a c-bet will usually take it down. Once we are into the shove/fold time though, the multis seem a lot more dangerous.

I've been dividing them between 2 colours, and then taking notes/changing colours as they present tendencies, weird plays, etc.; and on my 2-table SNGs, there are plenty of 1-2 tablers around at the bubble...

#10 14th April 2011, 3:43 PM

Personally I couldn't care less what they are currently playing as it's only a snapshot of them. Sharkscope is damn near 100% accurate when it comes to predicting how bad the players you're facing are...if you want to back up your read with more information that's cool, but it probably shouldn't be your first bit to consider.

#11 14th April 2011, 6:48 PM

Cody, I use sharkscope too. First I find players see who is playing the most tables. I SS them first then go down the list until I get down to last player playing over 2 tables. Since I'm still using free edition getting the players with the most tables first is important(max 5 searches). This way I get more bang for the buck(or lack of the buck in this case) using SS for free.

Now using SS against players against players at different levels through the micros to the bottom of the low stakes there is a pattern. This is what I have noticed at FTP anyway. BTW I play nothing but turbos so can't say this applies at all:

$1.20: Most players are down right horrible. No need to scope really except for amusement.

$2.25: Same as above. Also most players booting up more than 10 tables at this level are nitty slightly loosing to break even players that "know it all." Many will not pay attention so just steal relentlessly when possible.

$6.50: My most profitable level by far. If a player loads up more than 10 tables they are usually break even to slightly winning player(-2% to 5% ROI). I always color code these regs to watch more closely than others. Since I will be playing these people often, I need to know how they play.

Also there are anywhere from 2-5 winning players at any table you sit. The thing is they are not "good" in a sense that you can't beat them. You don't mind sitting with these players as long as you got some idea of their leaks.

Keep in mind there will be SOME good regs at this level too. Not may, but the ones that are you may want to color code so you can avoid them as much as possible.

$12 : Only stabbed at these with limited BR. From my little taste of these this is what I concluded.

There were more good regs than I expected. Feels like I was put in a shark tank and I am now slightly humbled. Decide to drop back down to improve my game before attempting again.

At this level everyone I SS who was playing more than 10 tables were pretty decent to good regs. There were 3-6 at each table. These guys were outplaying me much like I was outplaying people in the micros. Many had ROI over 10% and all over 5%(small sample of people but still seems about right).

So in a nut shell use all the available sources of info especially if you have limited searches. Also many 16 table regs at smaller levels are easier to steal/re-steal because they lack the skills to play that many tables profitably. On top of that, you can assume that almost any player loading 16 tables up at low stakes and higher are winning players.

#12 14th April 2011, 7:07 PM

Just an FYI to all reading this thread: purchase a sharkscope subscription of some kind if you're serious about crushing poker

If you're a casual player, purchase 200 searches just to make sure you're never without one. If you're a frequent grinder going with the 150 searches per day subscription is more than enough. If you're a mega grinder, perhaps you might need more searches in one day to accomplish our goals.

The thing is...the cost of it is soooooooo miniscule in comparison to the monetary gain we enjoy by knowing the strength of every opponent we play against (well most, some are blocked and some haven't played enough games, but not playing enough games is in itself capable of producing a read on our opponent). Paying 10-15 dollars a month when many of you are playing 3-6 dollar games is...well not even going to be noticeable to your poker bankroll.

Oh another thing, the feature that allows us to sharkscope the entire tournament using the ID# is HUGE. It saves time and allows us to instantly get a read on the entire table. Make sure you're using a SNG only filter in this regard since it can be rather troublesome to assume someone is a winning player if they've played 1500 games, made some money, but don't notice that all of the money they've made was from one random MTT score and have consistently lost in SNGs. On that same note, if you find a potential regular or someone that we may need to worry about when we do a tournament ID search, it's a very good idea to search that player using a filter for the exact game in which you found him. Some players dominate in, for instance, HU turbos but can't win a lick in 9 man turbos.

second edit: The more players we have sharkscope stats on the easier it is and the better we are at table selecting...which can increase ROI by a lot if done properly.

third edit: no i do not work for sharkscope lmao

#13 14th April 2011, 7:19 PM

^^Okay, I'll get that before I invest in poker coach. Good idea really.

Been looking for a way to spend some money to improve my game and this will be next. Just got new PC so that set me back a little for this month. Next month, if in the right state of mind, time for me to find a poker coach.

Wonder where I can do that? Kidding of course.

#14 14th April 2011, 7:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DetroitJimmy

Wonder where I can do that? Kidding of course.

I hear dakota-xx has been killing it lately, you should probably seek out her coach

#15 15th April 2011, 2:39 AM

These might be dumb questions, but I've got two of them:

First, isn't it against most site's rules to Sharkscope people during the game?

Second, how concerned should we be Full Tilt openly stating they want to put an end to data mining? If they're successful it would make a Sharkscope subscription pretty useless for Full Tilt players: http://www.sharkscopers.com/news/com...ltilt-coverage

#16 15th April 2011, 2:49 AM

It is illegal to use while playing. Just go through HH after you play and look up people. I have used it while playing in the past before I knew that. Haven't had an issue, but not taking chances.

As for the second part I wasn't aware of that.

#17 15th April 2011, 6:20 AM

It's technically illegal to use while playing...but so is speeding. Everyone does it, so policing it is damn near impossible unless they have a hair up their arse and feel like tracking you down.

As for sharkscope subscriptions being useless...just purchase it on a monthly basis If they shut it down midway through the month 4 months in the future, oh well, still got 4 months worth of awesome information.

#18 15th April 2011, 6:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bwammo

Just an FYI to all reading this thread: purchase a sharkscope subscription of some kind if you're serious about crushing poker

x1000

Just letting you guys know (bwammo, this might interest you as well) that there is some software that will be released for sale soon that allows you to search players from your HEM (or pt3 i assume) DB. It bascially pulls players you have played the most with from your DB and automatically runs them through sharkscope, it then inputs all of this data into you full tilt or pokerstars note file. It will automatically colour code and set information like ROI games played, ABI etc. and it will be fully customizable so you can set it to whatever you're needs are.

I'll let you all know when it's availiable for purchase, but you can literally search thousands of names in the matter of minutes and have them in your notes file for table selection purposes.

#19 15th April 2011, 6:36 AM

Wow that sounds incredibly cool lol

#20 15th April 2011, 4:29 PM

^^^^ Yeah please post that when available.

#21 16th April 2011, 12:08 AM

I prefer topshark (pokerprolabs) over sharkscope. You can view all of your opponent's game stats. (at a quck glance) attached to the bottom of each table (which can be minimized). No need to look anyone up.

#22 17th April 2011, 9:37 AM

I could never play more than 1 table. I don't like my play turning robotic which I find what generally happens as yes call me a pussy I just can't keep track, maybe cause I am really useless at multi tasking

#23 18th April 2011, 2:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclipsenz

I could never play more than 1 table. I don't like my play turning robotic which I find what generally happens as yes call me a pussy I just can't keep track, maybe cause I am really useless at multi tasking

FWIW it gets much easier with practice. When I started I'd come from playing live games so even one table seemed like it moved lightning fast...

#24 18th April 2011, 4:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

I prefer topshark (pokerprolabs) over sharkscope. You can view all of your opponent's game stats. (at a quck glance) attached to the bottom of each table (which can be minimized). No need to look anyone up.

You usually get the same problem with the games not being filtered. Plus it's illegal right? (I know on pokerstars the SS HUD is illegal)

#25 18th April 2011, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WiZZiM

You usually get the same problem with the games not being filtered. Plus it's illegal right? (I know on pokerstars the SS HUD is illegal)

You can set filters whatever way you want them (ie. # of entrants, buyin, speed, etc.). It is "NOT" illegal. The way they get around this for Stars is, player's 'roi' is not posted but their avg. buyin is & so is avg.profit (& written in red if it's 'negative' & in green if 'positive'). On Fulltilt the ROI is shown. Also has a HUD but I never use it... just gets in the way & is useless imo (easier just to click on ^Minimize^ / Maximize & a table of stats for each player is listed (attached to bottom of table).

#26 18th April 2011, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

You can set filters whatever way you want them (ie. # of entrants, buyin, speed, etc.). It is "NOT" illegal. The way they get around this for Stars is, player's 'roi' is not posted but their avg. buyin is & so is avg.profit (& written in red if it's 'negative' & in green if 'positive'). On Fulltilt the ROI is shown. Also has a HUD but I never use it... just gets in the way & is useless imo (easier just to click on ^Minimize^ / Maximize & a table of stats for each player is listed (attached to bottom of table).

Oh yeah I remember seeing that when I used the trial a while ago... Always figured it was against TOC.

#27 23rd April 2011, 8:24 AM

To me your going to find bad players any level. Just take alot of notes on the level your at because people who play sit n gos you will see again in again if its at the same level. Plus on sit n gos its better to sit back and watch others make mistakes.

#28 23rd April 2011, 8:30 AM

It's a really good idea to get into your HEM and take detailed notes on players you have a heap of hands on. Later tonight i'll run through how I note opponants, as it's pretty much impossible to note things on players while in game (10+ tables going at once).

#29 23rd April 2011, 5:49 PM

Yeah typically if you have over a thousand hands on players you can go into HEM and breakdown the type of player/person they are very accurately. What I usually do for myself and students is go to the players section and filter for opponents with over 1k hands and then begin to compare their stats to all of the players at our level. Things like 3 bet frequency, flop aggression percentage, the gap between vpip and pfr, and their actual vpip can combine to create an overall picture of the strategy that player is employing. Toss in some sharkscope information and we can make judgments as to whether or not the extremes are within normal tolerances or if they are actually leaks.

Honestly after I breakdown an opponent in such a manner when I have a few thousand hands against them, I can usually properly guess not only the type of person they are but what they do for a living. Once I know that information...game over.

#30 24th April 2011, 4:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bwammo

What I usually do for myself and students is go to the players section and filter for opponents with over 1k hands and then begin to compare their stats to all of the players at our level. Things like 3 bet frequency, flop aggression percentage, the gap between vpip and pfr, and their actual vpip can combine to create an overall picture of the strategy that player is employing. Toss in some sharkscope information and we can make judgments as to whether or not the extremes are within normal tolerances or if they are actually leaks.

Honestly after I breakdown an opponent in such a manner when I have a few thousand hands against them, I can usually properly guess not only the type of person they are but what they do for a living. Once I know that information...game over.

Yep exactly. What i like to do is go into the 'players' section. Search for players we have at least 500-1k hands on. It will then give me a list of player names. You can then right click and go into 'detailed player window', that will give you a breakdown of what this player is doing vs everyone, as bwammo mentions, 3bet %, the amount of times they bet flop/turn/river etc. You can really pick apart their game.

After that, i then go back into the 'players' section again, right click the opponant and click 'select this player'. What that will do is now automatically put that player in the 'reports' section of HEM. What i then like to do is setup some filters so that we can view the hands that villian has played specifically against us. So i go into filters and it has a "use vs player" filter, right down the bottom of the page. select it and search for you're own username and hit save and close. Then another cool feature on the Reports section of HEM, is 'Show known hole cards'. Click that and we now have a bunch of hands that this opponant has played against us.

It's really a good idea to go and pick apart opponants in this manner. The HUD stats we get on opponants is how they play against everyone. But after a while, even dumb regulars will adjust to us in some way, so it's a great idea to get an idea of how they play against us specifically, and doing this outside review is how it's done.

As bwammo said, once we pick them apart, we pretty much own them.

#31 24th April 2011, 4:44 AM

I'm playing on Carbon right now.. it doesn't seem like the SNGs fill up fast enough to play more than 2 tables at once. Am I missing something?

#32 24th April 2011, 11:31 PM

^^^ No you are not. Took 10 minutes for me to fill 3 fast fifties ($.60) on a Friday night. Life sucks!

#33 25th April 2011, 2:16 AM

Well you are missing something, not everyone is from the US.

#34 25th April 2011, 2:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DetroitJimmy

^^^ No you are not. Took 10 minutes for me to fill 3 fast fifties ($.60) on a Friday night. Life sucks for us in America!

^^^ Fixed my post. Still don't change the fact that it takes literally forever for games to fill up at Carbon. Not trying to hijack thread, just figured I would answer an off topic question is all .

#35 25th April 2011, 6:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DetroitJimmy

^^^ Fixed my post. Still don't change the fact that it takes literally forever for games to fill up at Carbon. Not trying to hijack thread, just figured I would answer an off topic question is all .

I was ignoring it, but it seems the thread has officially been derailed .

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