What are your criteria for floating on the flop?

I don't think I float enough. Some of my friends who are better players than me talk about floating nits and rocks and TAGs all the time. I am a little more conservative.

Up until now if I was going to consider floating a flop bet these would be my rough criteria:

1) player type: cannot be a LAG or a calling station
2) stacks must be relatively deep (like 40+ bbs)
3) I want to be in position
4) wet board where I can represent something on future streets
5) my hand should have at least some value

regarding #5- my hand having some value...I would consider this to be a gutshot, or a backdoor flush draw with 1 over, or bottom pair or an underpair.

I am wondering about the rest of you accomplished tourney players. How often do you float a flop bet and what kind of conditions do you like to see before you'll do it?

123 and 5 definitley agree with

4) doesnt have to be a wetboard, infact if they bet the dry board and you have any backdoor draws then ok to float as most players will likely give up on the turn if they dont improve.

So when they check you fire the turn preferably of you have hit one fo your backdoor draws

I agree with all but 1 & 4 (for the same reason rhombus stated). On #1... You should be floating and raising a lag more than tags and nits because your range is so much better than theirs. Remember the bet/fold line is a huge part of a lags game. You really shouldn't be looking and saying I will only float this type of player but not that type. What you should be doing is looking at the villains frequencies. You need to figure out what hands they are c-betting and into how many players they are doing so. Some players never c-bet into 3 players when they miss but will c-bet sometimes into 2 and will always when heads up. You really need to identify how often they are doing this and with what holdings.

Hey Missjacki

missjacki said:

I don't think I float enough. Some of my friends who are better players than me talk about floating nits and rocks and TAGs all the time. I am a little more conservative.

Up until now if I was going to consider floating a flop bet these would be my rough criteria:

1) player type: cannot be a LAG or a calling station
2) stacks must be relatively deep (like 40+ bbs)
3) I want to be in position
4) wet board where I can represent something on future streets
5) my hand should have at least some value

regarding #5- my hand having some value...I would consider this to be a gutshot, or a backdoor flush draw with 1 over, or bottom pair or an underpair.

I am wondering about the rest of you accomplished tourney players. How often do you float a flop bet and what kind of conditions do you like to see before you'll do it?

Click to expand...

Hey Missjacki,

I have heard conflicting opinions on betting or checking on the flop, if one flops hand. So, I remain confused as to which way to play the hand.

Good thread,

mange1234 (mike)

My thoughts:

1) player type: cannot be a LAG or a calling station If you are floating to bluff later, then I agree to not not float calling stations. LAGs are different. They often fold to pressure on later streets. The problem isthey can show up with some really weird hands.

2) stacks must be relatively deep (like 40+ bbs) Absolutely

3) I want to be in position This should be #1. Position is everything.

4) wet board where I can represent something on future streets Not so much. wet boards swing both ways, especially against aggressive players. What do you do when the board completes and a LAG leads 1/2 pot into you? Much better facing a dry borad EP bet that you raise.

5) my hand should have at least some value You should be starting with the same balanced open range for your position you always do. Your range has to fit the flop though.

Just because your friends are floating doesn't mean you have to aswell. all players have different styles. You should work on your weaknesses. Floating might go well with them but might not with your style. But just because you think you don't float enough isn't a good enough reason to worry about it. I would just stick to your conservative style and you will know the right time to float.

great thread, everyone who posted had good points. Now, what about playing against someone who you think is floating you? You're in position and you didn't hit the flop but you c-bet. It's early in the tourney so you don't have much information on the guy who calls your c-bet. The turn misses you. He bets, now what? I guess my weakness is that I almost always fold because there's a good chance he's not floating and he really did hit either the flop or the turn. So now, I'm one of the oldest players at the table and the young sharp aggressive guys label me as someone they can take advantage of and they do.

I need some weapons against these guys, any tips?

zingbust said:

I need some weapons against these guys, any tips?

Click to expand...

I can suggest a good weapon - "Check-Raise".

Try using this against the young guys who are more aggressive. You can use this weapon both as a bluff and for value. This will deceive your opponents and put them off. They will not know what hit em'.

Once you start using it you will find which situations/players to use it for best results and which ones to avoid.

You can also use check raise as a semi-bluff.

You can use your opponent’s tactic/habit of c-betting to your advantage.If your opponent decides to c-bet a flop, you can check-raise as a bluff to represent a hand you’d be likely to just flat-call with preflop, a pocket pair that hit a set or suited connectors that flopped big. Check-raising as a semi-bluff is also a great way to add strength to the way you play your drawing hands. Next time you flop a flush draw, check-raise instead of check-call and give yourself a second way to win the pot.

I agree with 1, 3 and 5.
#1 If your opponents is LAG or calling stations they will call or raise your bet often.
#3 You have to be in position in order to perform the float play
#5 You have to have some value in case you get called (you can improve on the river or just win the hand with any pair if they have unfinished straight or flush draw)

zingbust said:

great thread, everyone who posted had good points. Now, what about playing against someone who you think is floating you? You're in position and you didn't hit the flop but you c-bet. It's early in the tourney so you don't have much information on the guy who calls your c-bet. The turn misses you. He bets, now what? I guess my weakness is that I almost always fold because there's a good chance he's not floating and he really did hit either the flop or the turn. So now, I'm one of the oldest players at the table and the young sharp aggressive guys label me as someone they can take advantage of and they do.

I need some weapons against these guys, any tips?

Click to expand...

I'm less likely to expect that I'm Being floated when I'm in position (it's possible for higher level aggressive players to reverse float...but that's a whole different move. let's not worry about it so much right now).

so to answer your question: they may have picked up on the fact that you Cbet too often, and so they are planning to check/call down with a weak made hand. That is not really the same thing as a float. You can either give up on these pots, or find a way to win them.

If they have a weak made hand it is probably 2nd or 3rd pair, or a pocket pair between top pair and bottom pair. so, if an Ace or face card hits and they lead out on the turn, you can flat. that will scare the crap out of bottom pair. if a blank hits, you'll pretty much need to fold or raise, IMO.

The other reason players will check/call out of position is with a draw. so if the board contains a draw that hit, and they lead out on the turn then just fold.


OK....those were all for when you are in position. But what about when you are out of position and suspect you are being floated?

I'm going with SubyRafael on this one. If I have a medium strength made hand like top pair, I'll likely just check/call and let them bet it for me. Simultaneously inducing bluffing action while pot controlling with a 1 pair hand.

If I have a medium made hand like 2nd pair or a pocket pair between top and bottom pair, then I'll go ahead and bet out again. Don't want to show weakness to a suspected floater, but my hand isn't strong enough to induce action.

if I have nothing, or a draw and I don't want to give up on the pot, then I'll likely check raise as I'm not gonna be too bummed if I have to fold my nothing hand.

stack depth, tourney equity and the villians cbet stats are the things i would focus on

suby_rafael said:

I can suggest a good weapon - "Check-Raise".



You can also use check raise as a semi-bluff.

You can use your opponent’s tactic/habit of c-betting to your advantage.If your opponent decides to c-bet a flop, you can check-raise as a bluff to represent a hand you’d be likely to just flat-call with preflop, a pocket pair that hit a set or suited connectors that flopped big. Check-raising as a semi-bluff is also a great way to add strength to the way you play your drawing hands. Next time you flop a flush draw, check-raise instead of check-call and give yourself a second way to win the pot.

Click to expand...

Especially good to semi bluff UTG rasier as they will have alot of AK, AQ, AJs KQs in their range and you call from late position or in blinds as those kind of board hit your range alot better.

You will take alot of pots down except stubborn players or ones with over pair. If they 3BEt you then obviously a case of Pot odds and how good your draw is

1) A decent TAG player which has a predictable raising range
2) Having Position
3) Flops with low suited connector cards which may be in my calling range
4) If I pick up an exploitable betting pattern

Basically, I was playing a 9man SNG and when we were 3-handed there was this guy on my right who would rarely steal and raise with a respectable hand. One thing I noticed is that he would always c-bet the flop, but check the turn if missed. I floated a couple of ragged flops against him and took them down on the turn. My stack was thankful.

Subbing to respond later

:itsme: so tru seems like luck

missjack:

I'm with JPetro about #1 & 4. I don't mind floating a dry board with a draw because it's likely the best hand, and, like you point out, if it's not you still have a draw to a better hand.

In regards to floating the LAG it depends on the LAG. Many will give up after one C-bet. Some won't. I try to watch which type they are an act appropriately. Be careful as a huge part of a LAG's game is to smell weakness and attack it, so if they think they're being floated some won't mind firing 3 barrels at you with nothing. Totally right on the not floating the calling stations. Nits/rocks will be the easiest. Carefully with the TAGs. They also can smell the float a mile away and they get very possessive of their pots like LAGS but will have stronger holdings.

zingbust said:

So now, I'm one of the oldest players at the table and the young sharp aggressive guys label me as someone they can take advantage of and they do.

I need some weapons against these guys, any tips?

Click to expand...

I feel your pain on this. I'm a girl an often those same guys try to bully me. If you have the opportunity cause as much of a headache as possible for them. Be creative, call them down, check raise, stick your whole stack in on the flop if you have to (those guys hate calling off their whole stack early). If you can show them early on that there are easier fish to fry at the table they'll leave you alone.

zingbust said:

great thread, everyone who posted had good points. Now, what about playing against someone who you think is floating you? You're in position and you didn't hit the flop but you c-bet. It's early in the tourney so you don't have much information on the guy who calls your c-bet. The turn misses you. He bets, now what? I guess my weakness is that I almost always fold because there's a good chance he's not floating and he really did hit either the flop or the turn. So now, I'm one of the oldest players at the table and the young sharp aggressive guys label me as someone they can take advantage of and they do.

I need some weapons against these guys, any tips?

Click to expand...

The first thing you need to do is try to figure out what they think of you. You say your one of the oldest guys at the table. Usually older guys are on the nitty side. Open up your game and call down lags a little lighter. You really can't be afraid to raise them. We have an older guy that plays at our home game. We talked strategy with him and he really opened up his game which has made him a very tough player. It is easy to lay down the second or third nuts if your nitty and bluff shove a river.