What Did I Do Wrong?

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ssbn743

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It’s my normal Saturday deep stack event at my local casino; starting stacks were $30K with 30 minute levels. It was a really tough day; I was card dead all day, and was not finding any situations that benefitted me.

I open shoved a 10-15 BB stack twice, and then got moved to another table about the 5 hour point; an hour into that table I got busted as I’ll describe below.

At my new table, about 5 hours in, the blinds were $1K/$2K/$300 and my stack was about $30K. I had played a few hands from the blinds (since no one ever raises, limp, limp, limp – all right I’ll take a free check) but that was about it; again I was getting nothing to work with; 93’s and J4’s.

My stack got down to about $24K and I open shoved an AK off – everyone folded and I stayed in it. The next lap, the blinds went up to $1200/$2400/$400 and with me in MP1 the following hand takes place:

Hand 1

Blinds $1200/$2400/$400 and my stack was about $24K, a little less actually, and I was in MP1.

UTG raises to $7K and is flat called by UTG + 2 (who has about $30K). I find :4c4: :5c4:

I knew UTG opened light, I could smell the weakness, not that that does me a lot of good because I’m sure he is stronger than 45, nonetheless my only real concern was UTG + 2. I felt it was time to get it in, in what was sure to be an equity rich situation. I also thought I had some fold equity because of my tight table image coupled with players that don’t understand stack sizes and decided to take advantage of it – I moved all-in for ~$24K!

Everyone folds around to UTG + 2, just as I suspected, and after about 3 minutes of tanking he called and shows :ad4: :qs4:

Pot: ~$62K

The Board:

:6c4: :5s4: :3c4: :5d4: :10s4:

So I took down a nice pot and a tongue lashing from my opponent, “I can’t believe you shoved a 45”, to which I responded, “With your stack, I can’t believe you played AQ like that”. I’m not proud of it, but I felt this was as good as it was going to get, I mean, I had 10BB and was facing the BB in 3 hands.

My stack is now over $60K, which still isn’t very good, but is far better than it was. I folded until I was in the BB and that hand is described below:

Hand 2

Blinds are still $1200/$2400/$400 and my stack is about $61K – I was in the BB.

UTG + 1 limps in for $2400, as does a middle position player, both players had $90K-$100K. The SB completes the bet with a <10K stack (ha-ha), and I find :ac4: :kd4: from the BB.

I’ve got about 25BB so my open raise amount is $5,500 (2.25x and round up) and my raise with a limper would be about $8500. Since I have two limpers in this pot I raise my option to $12k (3.5x + limp +$1200 for my position disadvantage).

After I raised the middle position player tanked for a while and finally flat calls; everyone else folds.

Pot: ~$29K

Flop:

:8s4: :qd4: :4s4:

As always, I studied my opponent as the flop was dealt. He is a weak player that is full of information at times like these, yet his limp/call range is so enormous I really wasn’t looking forward to this. Anyway, while the Queen on the board is certainly in his range (KQ, QJ, even Q10 or K10 is well within his range) I didn’t feel he really liked that flop.

Any legitimate C-bet here commits 30% of my stack so I elected to move all-in on the flop for about $48K. Again, he tanks for 3 full minutes, and finally calls with the :as4: :10s4:

Pot: $125K

Turn:

:3d4:

River:

:7s4:

Sigh!

I have been running so bad lately it is unreal and I am getting really sick of losing, not that I ever really liked it, I guess – but Jesus! These fraking limp call jackasses are really getting on my nerves – how does he even call pre-flop here – he can only beat a total bluff, if I happened to be bluffing with a 25BB stack OOP, everything in my range beats an A10. It’s so frustrating. “But, but, it was suited would be his response I’m sure.”

In hindsight, I wish I would have just shoved pre-flop instead of jacking around with a raise OOP – but I don’t really win a great deal there either, it would have only been about $13K; which would have increased my stack by 20% - far better than getting busted.

This also brings up a side point: Has anyone else noticed the rise in players tanking for 2 to 3 minutes routinely? It is getting really bad – I don’t know if it’s because of ESPN’s poker coverage or what – but everyone thinks that it’s ok to tank for 3 minutes in transparent situations because that’s what the guys on T.V. do. I’m just bitching, but this has definitely been on the rise – at least at my casino and I find it increasingly annoying.

So anyway, did I do anything wrong here? I guess I kind of turned my hand into a bluff on Hand #2, but if I don’t raise all-in pre-flop my only other option is a give up slide. I like the way these hands went down, obviously I’m disappointed with the results, again, but I think I just got unlucky here; thoughts?
 
Jacki Burkhart

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Hand #1 is definitely marginal, but if you're pretty sure the first player will fold then you're figuring on a 40% equity situation with a lot of dead money, so I guess it's OK. I don't think you have as much fold equity as you think you do...but you know the players and the table and your image better than me. Either way you're most likely completely live and it worked out so, YAY!

The most interesting thing about hand #1 is the opportunity it gives us in Hand #2....

Am I to understand "I folded to my BB" to mean that hand #2 takes place just about 4 hands after Hand #1? If so, this is a great spot to shove that AK. Normally, I would prefer your 12k bet and then reassess on the flop but because your image is so recently tarnished by that 45 it is really nice spot to pick up a real hand with 3 limpers because they will usually suspect you are just on another squeeze and they will frequently look you up with worse hands.

As it played out, shoving the flop was marginal because, like you said a Q is in his range and do you think he will really fold a weak Q to you now, after seeing you shove with 45? I think you either shove preflop, or you if you just raise preflop it is so that if you miss you can then just check/fold the flop. If you were planning on shoving the flop no matter what, you may as well shove preflop...

again, this is mostly based on your recent table history. Typically, there is nothing terribly wrong with your play here....
 
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hackmeplz

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I responded, “With your stack, I can’t believe you played AQ like that”.
First mistake, first off his play is 100% fine, second off even if it wasn't no need to be a dick like that or get him to think about his play and try to improve.

Actually just read the hand again it's your 2nd mistake, as shoving 45s in that spot is gonna be awful when you only have 10bb and the open size was so big. Even if he folds a lot the guy who flatted is going to be getting too good a price to fold anything, even a hand like JTs is going to be a sigh/call in his position.

These fraking limp call jackasses are really getting on my nerves – how does he even call pre-flop here – he can only beat a total bluff, if I happened to be bluffing with a 25BB stack OOP, everything in my range beats an A10. It’s so frustrating. “But, but, it was suited would be his response I’m sure.”

This is just a huge leak in approaching the game. You're being way too results oriented and you are getting upset when your opponents make mistakes. That makes no sense whatsoever.

In hindsight, I wish I would have just shoved pre-flop instead of jacking around with a raise OOP – but I don’t really win a great deal there either, it would have only been about $13K; which would have increased my stack by 20% - far better than getting busted.
Why would you ever want to shove? Instead of getting him to fold you got him to put in a good portion of his stack at a huge equity disadvantage, he got one of the best flops he could have asked for, and still got it in bad. Think about the long term, you make so much more by raising an amount he'll call with a dominated range than you do shoving and only getting called by hands that are flipping or better against you.

This also brings up a side point: Has anyone else noticed the rise in players tanking for 2 to 3 minutes routinely? It is getting really bad – I don’t know if it’s because of ESPN’s poker coverage or what – but everyone thinks that it’s ok to tank for 3 minutes in transparent situations because that’s what the guys on T.V. do. I’m just bitching, but this has definitely been on the rise – at least at my casino and I find it increasingly annoying.


Yep agree 100%, it's one thing to tank in a legitimate spot where you have a lot of factors to consider, but a lot of the times people will tank forever especially if it's for a lot of chips even if it's a fairly simple decision. Like if you get shoved on and have 10bb in the big blind and take over 5 minutes wtf are you even thinking about? Sure it's your tournament life but taking 5 minutes isn't going to get you any more info.
 
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Hand #1 is definitely marginal, but if you're pretty sure the first player will fold then you're figuring on a 40% equity situation with a lot of dead money, so I guess it's OK. I don't think you have as much fold equity as you think you do...but you know the players and the table and your image better than me. Either way you're most likely completely live and it worked out so, YAY!

The most interesting thing about hand #1 is the opportunity it gives us in Hand #2....

Am I to understand "I folded to my BB" to mean that hand #2 takes place just about 4 hands after Hand #1? If so, this is a great spot to shove that AK. Normally, I would prefer your 12k bet and then reassess on the flop but because your image is so recently tarnished by that 45 it is really nice spot to pick up a real hand with 3 limpers because they will usually suspect you are just on another squeeze and they will frequently look you up with worse hands.

As it played out, shoving the flop was marginal because, like you said a Q is in his range and do you think he will really fold a weak Q to you now, after seeing you shove with 45? I think you either shove preflop, or you if you just raise preflop it is so that if you miss you can then just check/fold the flop. If you were planning on shoving the flop no matter what, you may as well shove preflop...

again, this is mostly based on your recent table history. Typically, there is nothing terribly wrong with your play here....

I don’t have a problem with your thinking here. On the 45 hand, however, you must consider everything. Certainly shoving a 45 into an UTG raise and EP call is not desirable, but given the situation and the fact that I must shove ATC UTG in 2 hands; coupled with the fact that UTG opened light, I don’t have a great many options – it’s time to pick a hand and go with it, suited connectors that are likely to be live by themselves seem like a good hand to me.

I didn’t think about shoving the AK pre-flop in real time – that only came up after the fact, and I can see some merit to your line of thought. However, I think doing so costs us tons of value – remember there are only limpers in this pot – I want to raise to amount that they will call with the K10’s and Q9’s they undoubtedly have.
 
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First mistake, first off his play is 100% fine, second off even if it wasn't no need to be a dick like that or get him to think about his play and try to improve.

Actually just read the hand again it's your 2nd mistake, as shoving 45s in that spot is gonna be awful when you only have 10bb and the open size was so big. Even if he folds a lot the guy who flatted is going to be getting too good a price to fold anything, even a hand like JTs is going to be a sigh/call in his position.

I only commented because he said something first; really I was just trying to come up with a comeback. You’re right though – it was a bad move and I should have just shut my mouth. I don’t have a huge problem with his play, but calling an UTG raise from EP for 20% of your stack with AQ is probably not the best way ahead. I like the 45 shove much better than the AQ call – both times he called.

I know I’m going to get called with a 45 here – though I did think I had more fold equity than I should have had; when a player raises 3x UTG with 80K back I should have exactly 0% fold equity on a $24K stack. This is certainly marginal, but is it more marginal than shoving ATC from UTG in 2 hands? That was my thinking.

I know I’m thinking in results-oriented ways when I bitch about the limp/callers, but it’s only after the fact. When I watched him flip over A10 of spades I was thinking, thank you – that’s awesome. In his defense, the pot was about right for him to make this call – but who am I kidding - he wasn’t even doing to math.

Why would you ever want to shove? Instead of getting him to fold you got him to put in a good portion of his stack at a huge equity disadvantage, he got one of the best flops he could have asked for, and still got it in bad. Think about the long term, you make so much more by raising an amount he'll call with a dominated range than you do shoving and only getting called by hands that are flipping or better against you.

I didn’t even think about shoving in real time either – that only came up after I cooled down and thought about the hand – and I was pretty hot after taking that one. If there had been a pre-flop raise I would have shoved pre without question, but you’re right, shoving with players that habitually limp/call is going to cost me tons of value – this case is the perfect example, no way he calls my all-in with A10; even suited:)

Yep agree 100%, it's one thing to tank in a legitimate spot where you have a lot of factors to consider, but a lot of the times people will tank forever especially if it's for a lot of chips even if it's a fairly simple decision. Like if you get shoved on and have 10bb in the big blind and take over 5 minutes wtf are you even thinking about? Sure it's your tournament life but taking 5 minutes isn't going to get you any more info.

This is getting really old. Yesterday I watched one player in particular tank for 3 full minutes, then ask how much his opponent had behind, then 4x raise. He did this 3 times before I got moved from that table; it’s like a mixture of tanking and Hollywood-ing and it is really getting on my nerves – far more players do this for far longer than they used to.

What are the etiquette guidelines for calling a clock? When I’m in the hand, I don’t want to call a clock because I don’t want to influence my opponent’s decision one way or the other, but I should have called a clock a half dozen times yesterday and would of if I thought I wasn’t violating some ethical standard or boundary. I’m going to start calling clocks – I’m so sick of this BS, especially in the lower limit 20 minutes level games where you only get 1 lap each blind level anyway – with players tanking for so long we’re getting 7 hands a level.
 
hackmeplz

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I don’t have a huge problem with his play, but calling an UTG raise from EP for 20% of your stack with AQ is probably not the best way ahead. I like the 45 shove much better than the AQ call – both times he called.

I play mostly cash so may not be the best to comment on what's basically a turbo mtt, but I think 10bb effective vs. a wide UTG opener we can both agree that shoving is better than folding. So now let's look at calling vs. shoving. When he shoves he's rarely going to get called by worse. If he shoves is someone behind going to call with AJ? Now he actually does get the benefit of getting some people to fold lower pairs that he's flipping with, for example say someone behind had 44 they're almost certainly folding whereas if he calls they might either call or shove. But all that is made up for when you account for the fact that people behind might shove hands like 45s where he has a huge equity advantage. And not only that, but say someone behind shoves and then UTG calls/reshoves. Now he can even consider folding since he's not going to have a ton of equity in that spot and he's saved money the times UTG has a big hand. I could be wrong but that's the way I approach thinking about it.

I know I’m going to get called with a 45 here – though I did think I had more fold equity than I should have had; when a player raises 3x UTG with 80K back I should have exactly 0% fold equity on a $24K stack. This is certainly marginal, but is it more marginal than shoving ATC from UTG in 2 hands? That was my thinking.

You definitely don't have to shove ATC from UTG when you have 10bb (or 8.5bb), but you're right you're starting to get to the point where you're going to be forced to do something marginal. You still want to make decisions which are +chipev though, and I'm pretty sure that's not.

I know I’m thinking in results-oriented ways when I bitch about the limp/callers, but it’s only after the fact. When I watched him flip over A10 of spades I was thinking, thank you – that’s awesome. In his defense, the pot was about right for him to make this call – but who am I kidding - he wasn’t even doing to math.



I didn’t even think about shoving in real time either – that only came up after I cooled down and thought about the hand – and I was pretty hot after taking that one. If there had been a pre-flop raise I would have shoved pre without question, but you’re right, shoving with players that habitually limp/call is going to cost me tons of value – this case is the perfect example, no way he calls my all-in with A10; even suited:)

Fair enough, live mtts can definitely be tilting, you have really bad players who end up getting a little lucky and going deep. Of course that's why live mtts are so soft, it's much easier for a fish to go deep in a turbo mtt than it is for them to win money in a 100bb cash game.

This is getting really old. Yesterday I watched one player in particular tank for 3 full minutes, then ask how much his opponent had behind, then 4x raise. He did this 3 times before I got moved from that table; it’s like a mixture of tanking and Hollywood-ing and it is really getting on my nerves – far more players do this for far longer than they used to.

What are the etiquette guidelines for calling a clock? When I’m in the hand, I don’t want to call a clock because I don’t want to influence my opponent’s decision one way or the other, but I should have called a clock a half dozen times yesterday and would of if I thought I wasn’t violating some ethical standard or boundary. I’m going to start calling clocks – I’m so sick of this BS, especially in the lower limit 20 minutes level games where you only get 1 lap each blind level anyway – with players tanking for so long we’re getting 7 hands a level.

Yeah when I'm in the hand I never call clock, but if I'm not in the hand typically what I'll do is if it's the first time I'll wait until I think it's been too long, give them another minute, then call the clock. Luckily I've never been in the position where someone was doing it every hand, but if they were a habitual offender I would not hesitate to start calling the clock after 30 seconds - a minute had passed. Like even if you call the clock after 30 seconds, it takes ~30 seconds for the TD to come over, then they get another minute, and 2 minutes is plenty of time to make just about any poker decision.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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Yeah when I'm in the hand I never call clock, but if I'm not in the hand typically what I'll do is if it's the first time I'll wait until I think it's been too long, give them another minute, then call the clock. Luckily I've never been in the position where someone was doing it every hand, but if they were a habitual offender I would not hesitate to start calling the clock after 30 seconds - a minute had passed. Like even if you call the clock after 30 seconds, it takes ~30 seconds for the TD to come over, then they get another minute, and 2 minutes is plenty of time to make just about any poker decision.

yeah, about calling the clock, I do exactly as stated above. If I'm in the hand I just won't. If I'm not in the hand I will, I think it is actually a courtesy because maybe one of the players desperately wants to call the clock, but is afraid to because he's still in the hand. When it seems like it's been a while, I'll count down 1 minute on my own, then call the clock. This gives them 2 more minutes past what I already think has been too long.

Now usually the first time a player tanks....I'll give him a little longer before I count down my silent minute. If he is a habitual tanker then I will give him a much shorter leash each successive time...especially if we are in a 20 or 30 min blinds situation...
 
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Being card dead for long stretches is bad enough. But what's worse is that it leads to making bad or marginal plays when you do get a good hand.

There's no real such thing as "card dead". It just looks that way because we don't always get our upper range. But remember that statistically a low hand against a high hand will still win out 33% of the time. And high hands will lose to lower pocket pairs 50% of the time. In other words: if you are waiting for AK, you are waiting for a hand that will lose about %40. It's a winning idea in cash games, but not in tournaments.

Don't focus so exclusively on your cards. Focus on the big picture. Pay most attention to the people to your immediate right and left. If your left hand player is all over the map, tighten up. But if your left hand player is in tight mode, it may be good to polarize your range. Play your top cards, and some dead-beat cards too. The guy to the right can induce the opposite strategy - if he's aggressive you can loosen up and work the flop. If the guy betting into you is tight, you should tighten up as well (and make the quick re-raise part of your arsenal, it'll quickly show if a tight player is on something or decided to have a "loose moment.")

If you reinvent your range just a bit you might find yourself pulling unexpected cards on the flop, or having a bit more leeway to play to the river and look for show down value.
 
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I play mostly cash so may not be the best to comment on what's basically a turbo mtt, but I think 10bb effective vs. a wide UTG opener we can both agree that shoving is better than folding. So now let's look at calling vs. shoving. When he shoves he's rarely going to get called by worse. If he shoves is someone behind going to call with AJ? Now he actually does get the benefit of getting some people to fold lower pairs that he's flipping with, for example say someone behind had 44 they're almost certainly folding whereas if he calls they might either call or shove. But all that is made up for when you account for the fact that people behind might shove hands like 45s where he has a huge equity advantage. And not only that, but say someone behind shoves and then UTG calls/reshoves. Now he can even consider folding since he's not going to have a ton of equity in that spot and he's saved money the times UTG has a big hand. I could be wrong but that's the way I approach thinking about it. .

So first, this was not a turbo MTT; we had 30 minute levels, which outside a major tournament, is the longest you will find – so this is a deep stack marathon.

He only has $30K and an AQ, virtually anything that he gets played back at with beats him – sometimes it might be a flip, but that’s about the best he can hope for. As played, he puts in almost 25% of his stack and then actually considers folding -2 hands from the BB.

That’s why I don’t like his play at all – if he thought UTG was weak like I did and though AQ was good (despite the 7 hands behind him) he should have shoved – the one thing he can’t do is flat call.

Even if he had shoved, I probably would have called anyway – I mean I did what I did thinking I had greater than 0% fold equity but knowing it wasn’t much higher than 0%, in other words I didn’t do what I did because of fold equity and knew I was getting called – hell, I wanted to get called – it’s time to go big or go home.

You definitely don't have to shove ATC from UTG when you have 10bb (or 8.5bb), but you're right you're starting to get to the point where you're going to be forced to do something marginal. You still want to make decisions which are +chipev though, and I'm pretty sure that's not.

I am predominantly a tournament player, mostly because the cash games here in Colorado suck ($1/$2 with $100 max bet). Over the years I have played several different strategies from several different poker players and authors; while some of those strategies are vastly different from one another, one thing that is always the same is the 10BB line. In fact, nowadays, we’re seeing more like 12BB’s – I know for a fact that is the number recommended by Jonathan Little because I have been playing according to his advice for 6 months now.
 
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So first, this was not a turbo MTT; we had 30 minute levels, which outside a major tournament, is the longest you will find – so this is a deep stack marathon.

Sorry I play mostly online. To me any live mtt with <1 hour levels is a turbo.

He only has $30K and an AQ, virtually anything that he gets played back at with beats him – sometimes it might be a flip, but that’s about the best he can hope for. As played, he puts in almost 25% of his stack and then actually considers folding -2 hands from the BB.
Considering folding is obviously dumb but the other part's fine.

That’s why I don’t like his play at all – if he thought UTG was weak like I did and though AQ was good (despite the 7 hands behind him) he should have shoved – the one thing he can’t do is flat call.
He got you to shove with 5 high and if he shoves you don't do that, how is his play bad again?

Even if he had shoved, I probably would have called anyway – I mean I did what I did thinking I had greater than 0% fold equity but knowing it wasn’t much higher than 0%, in other words I didn’t do what I did because of fold equity and knew I was getting called – hell, I wanted to get called – it’s time to go big or go home.
lolwut? You really need to relearn poker if you think getting it in with 5 high is good here. you're lighting money on fire by calling if he shoves.

I am predominantly a tournament player, mostly because the cash games here in Colorado suck ($1/$2 with $100 max bet). Over the years I have played several different strategies from several different poker players and authors; while some of those strategies are vastly different from one another, one thing that is always the same is the 10BB line. In fact, nowadays, we’re seeing more like 12BB’s – I know for a fact that is the number recommended by Jonathan Little because I have been playing according to his advice for 6 months now.

Sorry but it's wrong. I don't play many mtts but I'm friends with a lot of guys who play them for a living and I know for a fact that you do not have to shove 100% at 10bb. I played a ton of wsop events this summer so I talked a lot of mtt strategy with a lot of people. Shoving 93o from UTG with 10bb is just ****ing retarded sorry.
 
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Really dislike the 10bb shove on hand 1 given you have literally no fold equity. Such a large raise UTG; a flat mean it's a no go. Given there is already 21k in the pot pre flop; shoving your 24k gives them better than 2:1 odds meaning even if you're shoving as tight as 10% of your range, 72s is getting a breakeven price on calling.

Second hand; given the action in front, all of the limping I'd just shove pre flop. Sure we have 22bb; but there is tons of dead money, if we raise, we might end up multi way if one comes along, they will probably all come along and then in a big pot out of position and it's just a crap position to be in. Our range looks super strong when we raise this amount to so I think being balanced here is good because you have to think about how you would play 22+ and your weaker Ax/Kx hands in this spot, all of which you would likely just shove pre flop. When we raise like this, it stinks of AK+/JJ+ The short stack in the BB will likely call regardless and this is a decent pot we can take down either pre or after all 5 cards have run off. Maybe even the guy with AT too might come along too, all of which is great.
 
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He got you to shove with 5 high and if he shoves you don't do that, how is his play bad again? .

That’s basically what I did anyway. We know I had some fold equity (that is to say greater than 0%) because he tanked for so long, but when I shoved I was expecting to get insta-called. This is tournament poker – sometimes you just don’t have a choice – and if you happen to find yourself UTG with 9 3o and 10BB’s you shove and see what happens – hopefully a tight table image will give you some FE.

I didn’t shove 5 high, a shoved a hand that was likely live and had maximum equity, versus 4 5o. Is the difference miniscule? Yes, but it is just that much better – and better than shoving ATC UTG.

When I’m planning on shoving ATC – sometimes I just can’t shove that 9 3o, like you suggested, and will let it go one more lap, or see what happens from my big blind, but only if there are no antes. With antes, it’s no question; you must shove 10BB’s with ATC UTG.

Obviously this is why you don’t want to be in this spot – but if you’re there, for whatever reason, you don’t have too many options – sometimes I don’t even look at my cards!

lolwut? You really need to relearn poker if you think getting it in with 5 high is good here. you're lighting money on fire by calling if he shoves.

I’m lighting money on fire by shoving 6BB - 8BB’s after I go through the blinds one more time as well – I’m getting called by ATC from a big stack blind– how is that any different? The better spot is shoving ATC with 10BB’s; yes even if it is 9 3o! Additionally, the blind levels will probably go up at some point in here and you’ll have 3BB - 4BB’s – talk about no FE!

Sorry but it's wrong. I don't play many mtts but I'm friends with a lot of guys who play them for a living and I know for a fact that you do not have to shove 100% at 10bb. I played a ton of wsop events this summer so I talked a lot of mtt strategy with a lot of people. Shoving 93o from UTG with 10bb is just ****ing retarded sorry.

Let’s just say I disagree and leave it at that – I don’t have a bracelet or anything even close, but the 10BB/3M-4M line did not just come around yesterday.
 
etherghost

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Yeah, weird plays are on the rise. I guess poker is morphing at a fast rate. The "kids" are taking it to the next level and they are good at it. It's no longer a game which we, older players, think is top. Those "kids" have some kind of unexplainable advantage over REAL poker players which I like to call "plain stupidity accompanied by A LOT of luck!" Gotta adjust your game to that kind of player. No doubt about it!
 
Arjonius

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Yeah, weird plays are on the rise. I guess poker is morphing at a fast rate. The "kids" are taking it to the next level and they are good at it. It's no longer a game which we, older players, think is top. Those "kids" have some kind of unexplainable advantage over REAL poker players which I like to call "plain stupidity accompanied by A LOT of luck!" Gotta adjust your game to that kind of player. No doubt about it!
The winning kids win because they play in a way that gives them an edge over both older and young players who don't adapt to them. One thing is that they're willing to push harder with smaller edges. Over the long run, this translates into winning more chips / money. Also, they're more aggressive, which means they force/ encourage their opponents to make more tough decisions, which is obviously a winning recipe.

Yes, it's easy to think they get lucky more often. But if thinking so leads to not trying to adapt to them, that's hardly a good way to beat them.
 
hackmeplz

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With antes, it’s no question; you must shove 10BB’s with ATC UTG.


Let’s just say I disagree and leave it at that – I don’t have a bracelet or anything even close, but the 10BB/3M-4M line did not just come around yesterday.

I literally watched a guy with 1.5 million in winnings (now signed to team ivey poker) fold down to under 2bb in a wsop event last summer. The 10bb line is there for bad recreational players who are used to folding and waiting for QQ+ and would always blind away because they were folding AJ in the CO with 6bb.

In fact here's a chart for you, I entered 100/200 blinds with 2k stack for everyone and 20 ante. The UTG range to shove at 10bb with an ante that's 10% of the BB is actually 12.8% or 88+ A7s+ A5s-A2s AJo+ KTs+ KJo+ QTs+ JTs and in fact on the button you shouldn't even be shoving half your hands, you should shove 41.2% or 22+ Ax+ K2s+ K9o+ Q5s+ Q9o+ J6s+ J9o+ T6s+ T9o 96s+ 98o 86s+ 75s+ 65s 54s.

http://www.holdemresources.net/h/we...2000&s6=2000&s7=2000&s8=2000&s9=2000&s10=2000
 
Jacki Burkhart

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That’s basically what I did anyway. We know I had some fold equity (that is to say greater than 0%) because he tanked for so long, but when I shoved I was expecting to get insta-called. This is tournament poker – sometimes you just don’t have a choice – and if you happen to find yourself UTG with 9 3o and 10BB’s you shove and see what happens – hopefully a tight table image will give you some FE.

I didn’t shove 5 high, a shoved a hand that was likely live and had maximum equity, versus 4 5o. Is the difference miniscule? Yes, but it is just that much better – and better than shoving ATC UTG.

When I’m planning on shoving ATC – sometimes I just can’t shove that 9 3o, like you suggested, and will let it go one more lap, or see what happens from my big blind, but only if there are no antes. With antes, it’s no question; you must shove 10BB’s with ATC UTG.

Obviously this is why you don’t want to be in this spot – but if you’re there, for whatever reason, you don’t have too many options – sometimes I don’t even look at my cards!



I’m lighting money on fire by shoving 6BB - 8BB’s after I go through the blinds one more time as well – I’m getting called by ATC from a big stack blind– how is that any different? The better spot is shoving ATC with 10BB’s; yes even if it is 9 3o! Additionally, the blind levels will probably go up at some point in here and you’ll have 3BB - 4BB’s – talk about no FE!



Let’s just say I disagree and leave it at that – I don’t have a bracelet or anything even close, but the 10BB/3M-4M line did not just come around yesterday.
ssbn743 has a point about the 10BB/3M thing. But, as with everything else, poker is so situational but in general you are looking for any decent spot to ship a 10BB stack. That said, I still don't really like this particular ship with the 45s. You want first in vigorish when you are shipping such a short stack since you don't really have enough to make most limpers fold, let alone a raiser.... the reason shipping ATC on a short stack is profitable is because of fold equity. Once there is a limp and a raise you have almost zero fold equity. THAT is why I don't like it. But I do see your point about being live and you'll need to make a move in the next couple of hands anyways.

There are times when I'm supposed to shove ATC UTG and I look down at a hand like 93 off and if I know the BB is a defender with a big stack I might just opt to fold and see if I get a better hand in my BB. vs. if I was in the sam situation and I knew the BB was a tight passive medium stack I might just go for it anyways, terrible cards be damned!

I literally watched a guy with 1.5 million in winnings (now signed to team ivey poker) fold down to under 2bb in a wsop event last summer. The 10bb line is there for bad recreational players who are used to folding and waiting for QQ+ and would always blind away because they were folding AJ in the CO with 6bb.

In fact here's a chart for you, I entered 100/200 blinds with 2k stack for everyone and 20 ante. The UTG range to shove at 10bb with an ante that's 10% of the BB is actually 12.8% or 88+ A7s+ A5s-A2s AJo+ KTs+ KJo+ QTs+ JTs and in fact on the button you shouldn't even be shoving half your hands, you should shove 41.2% or 22+ Ax+ K2s+ K9o+ Q5s+ Q9o+ J6s+ J9o+ T6s+ T9o 96s+ 98o 86s+ 75s+ 65s 54s.

http://www.holdemresources.net/h/we...2000&s6=2000&s7=2000&s8=2000&s9=2000&s10=2000

Hackmeplz, I see your point, too. But you are probably talking about a high value WSOP event with a great structure; most tourneys don't afford good players so much patience. Even so, if he is folding a 2BB stack then he has a very good reason....there is probably a bubble situation with a shorter stack at risk, or he has a great read that somebody picked up a hand....and I'd still say it is pretty nitty.... (and there are successful nits too)

In the end we're talking about generic recommendations of what stack size is a mandatory shove, but you must alter generic advice to suit your playing style and your table conditions and your tournament stucture.
 
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hackmeplz

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As a default though, shoving anywhere close to 100% UTG with 10bb is going to be terrible. Seriously ask anyone who beats mtts $5 or higher and I promise you they'll agree.
 
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I literally watched a guy with 1.5 million in winnings (now signed to team ivey poker) fold down to under 2bb in a wsop event last summer. The 10bb line is there for bad recreational players who are used to folding and waiting for QQ+ and would always blind away because they were folding AJ in the CO with 6bb.

In fact here's a chart for you, I entered 100/200 blinds with 2k stack for everyone and 20 ante. The UTG range to shove at 10bb with an ante that's 10% of the BB is actually 12.8% or 88+ A7s+ A5s-A2s AJo+ KTs+ KJo+ QTs+ JTs and in fact on the button you shouldn't even be shoving half your hands, you should shove 41.2% or 22+ Ax+ K2s+ K9o+ Q5s+ Q9o+ J6s+ J9o+ T6s+ T9o 96s+ 98o 86s+ 75s+ 65s 54s.

http://www.holdemresources.net/h/we...2000&s6=2000&s7=2000&s8=2000&s9=2000&s10=2000

That’s a cool link – reminds me of a blackjack hit chart in a lot of ways – I do have to think right off the bat that it is more applicable to online poker than live, but I’ll take a look at it in more detail.

The thing is as an American, I don’t get to play $5 tournaments because I can’t play online (without a giant hassle), and I have been shoving ATC UTG with 10BB’s for years and have been successful at the low live stakes I play at. Granted the biggest buy-in tournament I have ever played is $1650, and I have never done very well in those big buy-in events, but the buy-ins were fully funded by my “bad recreational play”.

ssbn743 has a point about the 10BB/3M thing. But, as with everything else, poker is so situational but in general you are looking for any decent spot to ship a 10BB stack. That said, I still don't really like this particular ship with the 45s. You want first in vigorish when you are shipping such a short stack since you don't really have enough to make most limpers fold, let alone a raiser.... the reason shipping ATC on a short stack is profitable is because of fold equity. Once there is a limp and a raise you have almost zero fold equity. THAT is why I don't like it. But I do see your point about being live and you'll need to make a move in the next couple of hands anyways.

I see your point here; and I agree with it to. But is it worse than shoving ATC UTG?

ROCK||me||HARD PLACE

If you know you have near 0% fold equity, but can’t pass up what is sure to be a large amount of equity, what better hand to have than suited connectors?
 
Arjonius

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I literally watched a guy with 1.5 million in winnings (now signed to team ivey poker) fold down to under 2bb in a wsop event last summer. The 10bb line is there for bad recreational players who are used to folding and waiting for QQ+ and would always blind away because they were folding AJ in the CO with 6bb.
I'd be interested to know the full specifics of this situation and especially why he folded down so low in order to assess how similar / applicable it is to OP's situation.

Plus I can't help but wonder if OP is more like the team ivey guy or a recreational player.
 
hackmeplz

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Oh it was itm already too. Honestly he was just card dead and in all the good shove spots he just had bottom 10% type hands. Not anything special happens all the time was just giving a concrete example of someone good doing it.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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I see your point here; and I agree with it to. But is it worse than shoving ATC UTG?

ROCK||me||HARD PLACE

If you know you have near 0% fold equity, but can’t pass up what is sure to be a large amount of equity, what better hand to have than suited connectors?

It is my opinion that shoving ATC UTG with actual fold equity is better. But these are close calls that sometimes just come down to a matter of style and opinion.

For instance, one of my favorite moves when blinds are big is to re-steal with suited connecters something like 67s....because when I get called (rarely) it is usually by a premium hand and I have the best hand to face a premium hand with. To employ this strategy though, you need to have a stack size that threatens the opening raiser....I find usually 15-22BB or M=7-12 is the right stack size. If you have less they may just call you with a marginal hand, if you have more you are risking waaaay too much on a bluff....
 
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It is my opinion that shoving ATC UTG with actual fold equity is better. But these are close calls that sometimes just come down to a matter of style and opinion.

For instance, one of my favorite moves when blinds are big is to re-steal with suited connecters something like 67s....because when I get called (rarely) it is usually by a premium hand and I have the best hand to face a premium hand with. To employ this strategy though, you need to have a stack size that threatens the opening raiser....I find usually 15-22BB or M=7-12 is the right stack size. If you have less they may just call you with a marginal hand, if you have more you are risking waaaay too much on a bluff....

I completely agree. Like I said I have been shoving ATC UTG for years, but one thing is for certain and that is that it never works out real well. Even if I get called after shoving that 9 3 and hit trip threes to win the pot; I always get busted at some point before ITM. I don’t know if “always” is the best term their either, but it feels like it never works out, even if it works out; you know what I mean?

So this time I decided to take a different road; it’s debatable how much fold equity I would have had UTG anyway. Ironically, even this new or different approach didn’t work out in the end either; maybe the moral of the story is not to end up in this spot:)
 
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I'd be interested to know the full specifics of this situation and especially why he folded down so low in order to assess how similar / applicable it is to OP's situation.

Plus I can't help but wonder if OP is more like the team ivey guy or a recreational player.

I’d be interested to know all the details too. Even still, it doesn’t change the fact that I simply don’t like it – he’s putting way too much emphasis on the deck and “what may come”. He might as well look at the board and tell the floor he’ll take the next place.

I know if I’m his opponent, I’m calling ATC – hell, I wouldn’t even look at my cards. If he wins, I’d call blind the next hand too; and the next. It doesn’t make sense except under the absolute most extreme circumstance – there must be more the story here.
 
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