Using the Clock to increase Profit

I was in a tourny the other day,,16 of 24 left,,12-18 get 3 tournament dollars,,im at 2and change at 16th...so..since the change is relatively worthless,,i used up my entire clock each and every hand to get to the 18th spot and my 3dollars..most of the time i knew i was gonna fold,,,had to lay down some hands that hurt to let go of,,but once i hit the 18 mark,,I played poker,,all in with decent hands and went out at 14th,,some called me rude names and said i was being an ass,,i totally dissagree with that..first Its my Clock and I'll use it as i dmn well see fit...2nd..i wanted that 3rd dollar,,thats a whole other MTT anyhoo,,just some poker thoughts for tonight,,,cya on da felt,,still learning my way around this site,,gonna take a bit..

this is a great strategy if you are shortstacked or the bigstack.....not hand for hand though haha...

Earlier this year there was a fairly lengthy thread on this issue ...

http://www.cardschat.com/f11/stalling-strategy-139727/

IMO, my cards, my chips/money, my chair, my clock ... I'll use any/all of them as I see fit to play my hands.

I find this tactic acceptable sometimes but some people don't use common sense when doing this. For example: The tourney has been running for 2 mins and you are already using the stalling tactic, at this stage everyone is about equal in chips and nobody is remotely close to the money, stalling at this point in the tourney won't be helping you in fact it will be working against you. Allow me to explain, in Full Tilt's freerolls the blinds go up every 5 minutes, you need to make the best of that 5 mins not stall because doing so means there will be LESS hands in that 5 mins resulting in you having LESS of a chance to get a good hand.

Now near the bubble in can be seen as a good and bad thing for both short stacks and big stacks alike. If you are short stacked and near the money then it might help depending on your M. If it is at 5 or less then its not helping you because the next time the blinds go up your M is going to drop to about 3 meaning you are forced to go allin. However sometime it CAN help you get to the money (you will be in a bad spot in chip size though.) Now if you are a big stack this is a wonderful idea, it causes there to be less hands before the blinds go up so less likely for the medium size stacks to double up which would give you a run for your money later on.

Do whatever it takes (ethics please) to squeeze an edge out of this game.

Absoulutely Agree, If I am on the bubble of tourney or especially a satellite like the OP I will Stall as long as I can to make the bubble.

Obviously I am desperate for chips(M level desperate) and it is more important for me at this point just to cash.

I am NOT going in here with any 2 cards and I do have the other 2 or 3 windows open to see where my fellow similar Bubbleers are.

I agree...a fellow CC'er told me about this to burst through the bubble...I will try it next time I'm close to that and also to increase my money won AFTER I'm already ITM! You're given the time so why not use it?

IMO, my cards, my chips/money, my chair, my clock ... I'll use any/all of them as I see fit to play my hands.[/quote]


absolutely use it all as part of your game... long clock decision when strong to appear weak to induce calls,quick call or raise/re-raise to seem stronger than you are etc. or as been said to slow play down near the bubble to squeek ITM or protect your stack against lesser ones for the run to final table.
It may piss off some and they will bitch at you but it may even put them on " " tilt (which is good also) but if its not against the rules of the game then "all's fair in love,war 'n poker"

I took a look at the previous thread flagged by Nevadanick and there were plenty of people who saw the tactic as unethical/annoying/unsporting and so on. There was also some OT nonsense talked there.

I think there is an etiquette issue here - if someone is pissed off by it then it is probably poor etiquette. That said, I do it myself all the time. As others have said, you use the time you have as a resource to get the prize. To me it is no different from using your clock to make it look like you have a tough decision when you have the nuts, or folding quickly to get the rising blinds through, or slowing up so the blinds are big on your button etc etc.

Using the clock on the bubble can backfire - when you really need that time later on in the tourney and it isn't there.

It's a weak ass strategy used by players that have no game. You should be using the bubble time to build your stack at a time most of the other players are tight. If you are playing a tourney then why play it to just get the first pay out? Also the bubble is usually hand for hand. Which makes it even more stupid when people run the clock.

Another use of the clock is when facing a bet that you are going to fold to, especially a reraise. It's amazing how often people will flash their cards. Not a major winning strategy, agreed, but a little bit of free info never goes amiss.

This is a tourney, a race n about winning the prize or even juz get itm. everything that u can use and secure a winning pos is good.. i used to use the entire clock everytime when i was a newbie to get myself from bubbled. even until now, i still tend to use it but to get myself deeper into the prize pool... So yeah... u've done the right thing.. who cares you use wat tactics as long as u can win...

I think you will show a higher profit by learning how to play poker correctly rather than just using your clock time up in strange spots

Use whatever you can to stall the game while a player like myself will just keep stealing your Weak and easy blinds. Ive used it but not anymore because I dont play above my bankroll anymore.

If your preference is to avoid playing hands, you can achieve this most effectively by not entering tournaments in the first place.

On a more serious note, check the site rules of your chosen poker room. Several of them say that deliberate time-wasting is not permitted. Therefore, you may be in some difficulty if opponents become annoyed and make a complaint.

I don't see what the problem there is with this. In live touneys if you do this too much, they'll call a clock on you (often), but this is precisely why they have a time bank. I see no problem with using it to your advantage if your style of play can profit from it.

I have used this strat in the past but got tired of just barely making the money. I now make it a point to never put myself in this situation and usually make it deep ITM.

I suspect you missed my post:

For example (from Bodog`s rules):

"Players that intentionally slow down play will be warned and if such behavior continues may have their accounts suspended."

You might be surprised, if you search in the fine print, to find how many sites have a similar rule. The only reason, imo, that slow play has become quite widespread in tournaments is because those who dislike it don`t actually realise that they have the right to complain to Support about it.

Poker is a game of skill, and some luck. If you're smart enough to do this and someone else isn't, take whatever advantage you can get (legally). I too have done it.

I will look in your treasure's gypsy, do you understand?
Who is this lady you've shrunk?

-Borat

Who said this gives you an advantage? It doesn't, you are only hurting yourself by doing this. Yeah, you might sneak into the first level of pay. However, the point is you shouldn't be in that situation in the first place. You should be shoving and be aggressive when your M is around 10, to give your self a shot to go deep and make the final table!!!

"Using the clock" is a strategy used by poor players. Players that are happy with just cashing. You never get ahead or make any money playing to just cash a tourney.

I would only use time stalling as a last resort. I play at Bodog so stalling isn't permitted, but I doubt many players have ever been told by Bodog to not do that. When I'm on the bubble, I'm always looking to push with a decent hand and I've got a small stack. When I first started playing poker, I would get to the bubble with hardly any M and then try to make it, but I realized that's a poor strategy. You will never win a tourney and rarely make the bubble.

I think that if you are severely crippled by a previous play that puts your M far below 10, stalling might have a place. Other than that, I don't agree with this approach.

I totally agree with using the clock and stalling,Ive placed in the money(or satelite entry)by using the clock.It really does work,and I dont care who or what anyone says...it does work,and it is legal online at least.

Proper clock usuage is a key ingrediant of the game...smart and is legal...most do it when necessary but after hand to hand, not that productive.

Yes its right up there with board texture, opponent profiling and equity. I would suggest you all spend some time reading up on the various clock usage strategies as its probably one of the most profitable tools you can add to your game. From what I gather on 2+2 Ed Miller is devoting several chapters to it in his next book.

Maximum amout of time invested, minimum return on your investment. Can't believe I didn't think of this before. Thanks.

Please explain how you justify these comments in the light of the evidence I have posted that it is not legal online.

Further evidence, from Titan`s rules:

"Any breach of these rules will result in the player being contacted and will carry the risk of suspension or ban from the poker room.........
Timely play - We understand that, occasionally, you may require some thinking time when playing. Please however consider the other players and try to make every effort not to slow up the progress of the game."

Further evidence, from Party Poker`s rules:

"Don't stall. Regardless of the game or tournament it hurts you and everybody else at the table."


I could go on, but I think the point is made. I know that the practice of stalling is quite commonplace. It is, however, considered improper by most poker rooms. It is not to be recommended, imo.

There is another protracted thread here on stalling as bubble strategy; I dont think Egon's points appeared there, it was largely an 'ethical' issue (too lazy right now to find)... I agree with Trigga that it is usually loser mentality, also w Egon that it is proscribed most places. That having been said, the rules above are always subject to interpretation (what is 'timely,' is one person's timely another's tardy etc.??), are generally not enforced partly for that reason. I'm sure if you shout out to the table that you are stalling, or ask others to join, u will get in trouble. But sometimes, it is a reasonable and useable ploy when used judiciously without the appearance of impropriety IMHO (dam I should been a lawyer, do u think??)

If you are a short stack and fighting to make the bubble, a small amount of time may help you make the money but it isn't always going to succeed.

If you really considering making a call, raise or push take your time, it can be a deceptive strategy and help you take down a pot sometimes, but if you are just stalling to just hit the money it can be annoying.

I usually take my time when playing, too many times I have rushed a bet or a call only to realize I was trapped or in the wrong position.

As others have said, if this is your usual strategy maybe you are not playing as well as you think you are. If it is a rare occurrence then slow down the play and analyze the situation but don't stall it.

As for the rules at various sites, they want you to play as many hands an hour as possible. They make their money that way.
One of my biggest gripes about online poker is the clock.
Live poker really allows a good player to analyze their position, the hands and the action prior to them to make good poker decisions.

Wat u did was real clever buddy...
I really appreciate with wat u did there...
Good game and dont worry about wat others think...

i'm agreeing with those who are against stalling. when you're dealt 47o, you're shortstacked and you're in early-mid-position...and you know you are going to fold, you should fold without taking up 30 seconds of everyone's time. there are times, in a satellite, when you're nearing the bubble, and you've opened up a couple other tables where there are shortstackers and see they're about to get blinded out and that makes all the difference between winning and losing, that's one thing...you've done your research, you're using this as you're edge...but under no other circumstances have i found extending time with your hand you know you're going to fold anyway is going to help.

first of all, it's rude to everyone who is trying to play the game. here's the deal, it's online poker...the blinds are set to go up, no holds barred, at a certain second...so you need to realize other tables are seeing more hands as a result of your stalling....so do the math. you see less hands, so that's less decent hands you might want to play...far less often are you in position to make a move to try to improve your (more than likely crippled and dying pathetic) chip stack....and it's all your fault. and EVERY time the big blind hits you, its yet EVEN bigger than the last time, even though you've seen all of 7 hands since the last time it increased. and then...you have the nerve to call it a "bad beat" when you get dealt AA after you make the money, with an M of 1.3, and half the table calls, and you lose.

when i'm getting near short, i'm looking for spots to get my chips in because those blinds make a big difference in my tourney life. even my 47o in the SB, i'd rather go out when an M of 7 than fold my way to an M of 1 and be pissed off AA lost....and these spots i'm hunting for, i want them fast...blinds are hitting everybody else too...so if you feel the need to stall constantly, that's a serious issue with the way you play poker. perhaps you're better served just working on learning how to play...yeah, sometimes the donk who doesn't have the odds to call DOES call with a 29s and wins with a 9 high over your 47o, hey, whatever, that's his problem...but when you GIVE HIM THE ODDS TO CALL your AA shove because you stalled every hand and your chips aren't much over the BB...you know, he was correct to call you, and i wanna shake his hand for taking you out because you are annoying!

if we've gone over a good handful of dealings and miss_sofine69 is clicking fold at the last second for every single hand...i won't hesitate to ask them to please pick up the pace a little bit...EVERYONE else in the tourney is seeing more hands, is getting more opportunities.

it really is a noobish kinda thing to do, and that's who you usually see abusing stalling. i think most people in this thread advocating stalling really need to work on getting your chips all-in when your chipstack still means something, rather than being a hindrance to everyone else in a tournament who understood this and did the same earlier. you're probably going to get to a point where you realize "hey, my stack is getting short" in every tournament and you need to act on it in the near future...not stall 30 seconds per hand from the time the big blind is 200. and when you realize this...you'll not only have a lot more fun playing, but you'll allow everyone else to enjoy the game too.

that's just my opinion though, i get poker-stall rage just like i get road rage...i'll yell at the monitor, stand up, point at the monitor, say bad words. 90% of the time, a stall from me usually means "i gotta pee i gotta pee! i gotta peeeeee soooooooo baaaaaaaaaad!" and i went pee...where i thought i could get back before slowing the game down.

I never realized I had the right to complain about this. All too often ive been playing a tourny or a turbo multi table SNG and seen people using every last second of their time and then fold.And you just know that they had a hand like 85 that they never seriously considered playing. Nothing annoys me more tbh, because when im in their position, shortstacked approaching the bubble, I never waste time. Instead I go faster hoping to pick up a hand to make a move with.

Good idea. I will do it when I play. It's 100% legal