There's only so much heart ache in poker you can take - What is the solution

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cotta777

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Im really now like 3 years into my poker playing life. Im still unable to achieve the huge cash I have needed so badly and Im starting to feel it wont ever come.

I have had numerous 3 figure cashes in very large fields made appearances in the sunday million, WCOOP (obviously satelliting) never expecting to get a big cash rightly so.

But in the lower buy in tournaments I have time and time again come close I've added more final tables to my tally this month again picking up small cashes falling short of the 4 figure prizes.

and there have been many more small cashes reaching maybe the last 100 players.

In effect ive spent most of this time fluctuating up and down never really achieving anything great in these 3 years.
pretty much im still untested at the cash tables having dedicated most of my effort into mtt stt and so forth.

But the question really is where do you go?
How much can you take?
Maybe its the mentality which is too weak to fight for the big prizes because it effects the game , decisions.
Or maybe its just a part of my game I which is very weak, concentration isn't as strong 5 hours into a session etc
 
Arjonius

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When you reach those final tables, is your chip position more often above or below the middle? While anyone at a final table can win, having one of the larger stacks obviously improves your chances. So, if you tend to arrive at FTs lower-stacked, you may want to look at tweaking your game in the period approaching the FT.

Another possibility is that you don't adjust your play enough as the FT shrinks.

As for whether / how much playing for a big amount takes you off your game, it's pretty common for people to be affected to some degree. However, it can be hard to admit depending on one's ego.
 
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cotta777

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Alot of the time my stack will be averagely sized this is largely due to my lack of willingness to take a big risk or a flip so close to FT.
So more of the time il be treading water doing what I have to do to keep it evenly sized until I get a big hand.

I would rather get there first and then take that flip or make some fearless plays

I understand this will effect my chances of winning the tournament to an extent, but as a whole I would feel so sick going out in say for example 17th place when I could of made a few extra dollars at FT and took that risk on the FT.

in the early stages I will take flips and try to get involved alot especially if it a turbo.

once that realization sinks in that I have a shot at the big money unless Im a chip leader I have to admit I do sometimes shy away from the action.

Last night tho I did play a fearless game and got all my chips in, in the $27.50 (50k)
I was in the top 20 in a huge field at the time around about 3 hours into the mtt I came out on the wrong end of a flip with one of the chip leaders.

that was horrible.
 
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i think you should feel privileged having so many itms in just three years, unless you consider yourself a pro or something you don´t have to push yourself and think because you have not won a fist place in a big field mtt you are not doing well, i think you need to play so many mtts and have a bunch of them in which everything goes in your side to be the winner and get a big prize otherwise i don´t see how you can win a big field tournament unless you play a big big number like a pro probably does
 
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Selection

Perhaps the tournaments that you satelite into have such a vast field , the chances of winning or for that matter final tabling are slim . Choosing a tournament with under 200 players may be more suited to your bankroll and give you a better return . We would all love to win a massive amount in one go but the realistic truth is , it is unlikely .
I like you play tournaments rather than cash games and have a return of between $1000 to $2000 per year for the 4 years I have played . I choose tournaments with smaller fields giving me more final tables and cashes than in the big events advertised by the big sites .
 
IPlay

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It sounds like you play to get ITM and not to get 1st place
 
Dee Dee

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I think you should not worry about going out in 17th place or whatever, instead take every chance at this stage to get a massive stack or bust out, a lot of players at this stage will be playing a risk averse game and sometimes you get spewy players with massive stacks who want to boss who will give you most of their chips. I don't like it either to bust out so close to the FT but I will be willing to bust here because the cash I will already have tied up means very little compared to the cash I could win by taking some chances and getting a huge stack.
 
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cotta777

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I definately think you are right, with regards to expectations being too high...
Viewing anything less than 1st as a failure but thats just my nature and how I motivate myself to get better.

Also as stated in the post above by Dee Dee^^
taking those risks are very little compared to the difference in cash we can win.

The problem I've had is a combination of bad timing and awful coolers whenever I've gone for it my timing has been horrible walking into AA or KK or just getting someone call as the underdog and hit a set or straight etc.

This week I had a fantastic chance to go chip leader in a fairly big tournament $9,789 for first place 6,900 runners I took the flip with KK and lost to Q10 v the chip leader over 3 hours in.
Had I won that flip I would of been stacking 115/120BB and a big big chip lead

Now although I respect this does happen it really hurts and I know had I won that flip the way I had been playing I would of been shocked not to make final table gauranteed a 4 figure cash at least..

I honestly dont think I can stomach the near misses much longer.
Maybe tournaments are bad for me as a poker player
 
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RamdeeBen

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Problem with MTT's as I've said before is variance is absolutely huge. I've had soooooo many deep runs but honestly, closing of a tournament is really difficult due to the variance and of course towards the end better players are usually around.

However, these days I've had much better results. I found early on during poker, I could just run deep but never or very rarely close one off and after a while, I just accepted my end game needed a lot of work. Early stages and even middle stages or so straight forward, usually a TAG approach is good enough but towards the end of tournaments, you have to be willing to gamble for one and two, you really need to up your aggression quite a lot. Stealing and 3B stealing lighter is such an important part of end game MTT play. I used to play tighter towards the end game because I didn't want to bust, but truth is..I imagine you probably aren't aggressive enough.

An example I could give is, say I'm stuck on 20bb and an active LP opens and I have A2s on the button with tight two tight players in the blind. The old me would either call or fold and my stack would gradually dwindle to the point where I have no FE and very little play left but these days I'm much more happier 3B shoving these hands vs the right players, especially relentless aggressive players.

Why not post some hands from your deep runs, I bet there are so many spots you're missing out on that you might not realize. I mean, I've never seen you play or posted a hand so it's really hard to tell but generally - if you have been playing for 3 years and not had any decent wins as you would call, depending on your volume (I'd assume a fair bit of volume) - I have to assume your end game probably needs some work.
 
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cotta777

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Problem with MTT's as I've said before is variance is absolutely huge. I've had soooooo many deep runs but honestly, closing of a tournament is really difficult due to the variance and of course towards the end better players are usually around.

However, these days I've had much better results. I found early on during poker, I could just run deep but never or very rarely close one off and after a while, I just accepted my end game needed a lot of work. Early stages and even middle stages or so straight forward, usually a TAG approach is good enough but towards the end of tournaments, you have to be willing to gamble for one and two, you really need to up your aggression quite a lot. Stealing and 3B stealing lighter is such an important part of end game MTT play. I used to play tighter towards the end game because I didn't want to bust, but truth is..I imagine you probably aren't aggressive enough.

An example I could give is, say I'm stuck on 20bb and an active LP opens and I have A2s on the button with tight two tight players in the blind. The old me would either call or fold and my stack would gradually dwindle to the point where I have no FE and very little play left but these days I'm much more happier 3B shoving these hands vs the right players, especially relentless aggressive players.

Why not post some hands from your deep runs, I bet there are so many spots you're missing out on that you might not realize. I mean, I've never seen you play or posted a hand so it's really hard to tell but generally - if you have been playing for 3 years and not had any decent wins as you would call, depending on your volume (I'd assume a fair bit of volume) - I have to assume your end game probably needs some work.


Im starting to get like more aggressive during the close (which ironically is how I started out) over the last year I started playing more of a cautious game recently now I've gone back to looser.

A2s on the button I will 3-bet a late raiser in fact on of my recent 180 FT cashes I was shoving A8 and KQ v Lag players..and really taking big risks that I might not of been doing when grinding mtts alot of the time

Im gonna filter through some hands now hopefully get one or interesting ones up
 
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RamdeeBen

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What's your screename on stars? I sometimes grind the $2.50's 180 mans, I might of seen you a few times. I'm a huge note taker, so if you have played in the same games as me, there's a chance I've seen you.

Not saying I'm great or anything but every little thing helps and if I've noticed something that might not seem correct I'll let you know.
 
el_magiciann

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Yeah from what I read I think that you might have some problems with your game late in the tournaments, you should be more aggressive, and try to steal some pots, maybe you also miss to write notes about other players, the notes are going to help you a lot late stage of the tournament because you have played 1table for long time, maybe you are easy to be read, with playing every hand in exactly the same way you playing the whole tournament it is easy for you opponent to know what you got and they have some tells on you, so try to be more creative and more aggressive and more frisky and probably you can get what you want. I am not that player too and have to work a lot on my game but I'm gonna push hard and someday I can achieve what I want. So good luck sir, hope to achieve big results at the tables!
 
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cotta777

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Trying to find some hand historys but only recieved part of the tournaments I want..?

its the_new_kid7

I play under my CC screen name aswell at some sites.

my BRM has been awful not going to lie, I play well on my day and can get some decent results.
but as a whole my B and C game is my downfall at times wreckless.
 
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cotta777

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Yeah from what I read I think that you might have some problems with your game late in the tournaments, you should be more aggressive, and try to steal some pots, maybe you also miss to write notes about other players, the notes are going to help you a lot late stage of the tournament because you have played 1table for long time, maybe you are easy to be read, with playing every hand in exactly the same way you playing the whole tournament it is easy for you opponent to know what you got and they have some tells on you, so try to be more creative and more aggressive and more frisky and probably you can get what you want. I am not that player too and have to work a lot on my game but I'm gonna push hard and someday I can achieve what I want. So good luck sir, hope to achieve big results at the tables!


Cheers,

Notes I now note as much as possible I find it helps me think about players also on a next level approach.
Im going to get comfortable playing any 2 cards over the next 12 months to the point where my exploitive game becomes much greater.
focusing on position and player observation I believe that will bring me to the next level it can only add to other attributes
 
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RamdeeBen

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Trying to find some hand historys but only recieved part of the tournaments I want..?

its the_new_kid7

I play under my CC screen name aswell at some sites.

my BRM has been awful not going to lie, I play well on my day and can get some decent results.
but as a whole my B and C game is my downfall at times wreckless.

just request hand histories from pokerstars for a date range.

Don't know your screen name, don't have a note - that's a good thing usually though. If you want, record a session of yourself playing 180's or MTT's and upload to youtube, post link here and I'll be more than happy to look through it for you every single spot that comes up, if I think it's a fold/call/raise or whatever I'll post back here. You don't have to talk whilst playing, just record yourself play doing like 4 tables or so. I'm not the best but I'm sure I can beat the stakes and I always found that was a big help with my game when I did it.
 
redcross

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It sounds like you just have a problem with bankroll management. If you have numerous 3 figure wins what have you done with it? Are you blowing some at cash tables or sticking to what you are best at. I know I excel at larger tourneys and I suck at cash tables cause I can't control myself. So I strictly play tourneys and do great. Just manage your time and money correctly.
 
itsmebobd

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Im really now like 3 years into my poker playing life. Im still unable to achieve the huge cash I have needed so badly and Im starting to feel it wont ever come.

I have had numerous 3 figure cashes in very large fields made appearances in the sunday million, WCOOP (obviously satelliting) never expecting to get a big cash rightly so.

But in the lower buy in tournaments I have time and time again come close I've added more final tables to my tally this month again picking up small cashes falling short of the 4 figure prizes.

and there have been many more small cashes reaching maybe the last 100 players.

In effect ive spent most of this time fluctuating up and down never really achieving anything great in these 3 years.
pretty much im still untested at the cash tables having dedicated most of my effort into mtt stt and so forth.

But the question really is where do you go?
How much can you take?
Maybe its the mentality which is too weak to fight for the big prizes because it effects the game , decisions.
Or maybe its just a part of my game I which is very weak, concentration isn't as strong 5 hours into a session etc
I struggled with this when I was about 2-3 years into my poker "career"... Playing to cash is playing to lose. The money is in the top 3 spots, anything less should be considered a failure of sorts. Think about it, tourneys like the sunday 100k at bovada for example is a $162 buyin, and 10th place is usually around $1800 (700 players average).... Do u want to go that far and win $1800 when first place is 25k? My best cash on 6 tries was 22nd for $1800 (was a much larger field that week due to promotions) and I lost with :ac4: :ah4: after I called an all in with flop of :ad4: :3c4: :6c4: (opponent had :4c4: :5c4: in SB and called my button raise and shoved flop), but the bottom line was that I was going for first, not top 18 which would have been another raise to $2400... Final table is nice and all, but remember once you get there you're only beginning the MOST IMPORTANT part of the tourney. It's easy to get into gamble mode due to the aspect of HUGE blinds and smaller stacks. Just keep learning and grinding and the bigger wins will come.
 
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Poker Orifice

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One thing I'd suggest for you to do is >
stick to one format for awhile..
ie. if you're going to play the $3r/a 180's... then play them.
If it's going to be standard (reg.) speed $4 - 180's ... play 'em.

If it's 9man STT reg. speed... stick with 'em. (or Turbo, or 6-mans.. etc. etc.).
 
C

cotta777

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One thing I'd suggest for you to do is >
stick to one format for awhile..
ie. if you're going to play the $3r/a 180's... then play them.
If it's going to be standard (reg.) speed $4 - 180's ... play 'em.

If it's 9man STT reg. speed... stick with 'em. (or Turbo, or 6-mans.. etc. etc.).


I think the 180 mans are the way forward for a while. like you only need to win the rebuy once and you have like 60 $7 buy in's or 120 $3.50 buy ins.

playing fields so big 4,000 to 12,000 runners your going to get so many coolers and hit so much variance it obviously hurts alot more and again mega time consuming.

Even playing the $15.00 180s it would onlybe a matter of time before a solid player wins the $700+ for first place and in the process making small profits.

Really Really think the big tournaments are going to be a rarity in 2014 :)
 
Poker Orifice

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I think the 180 mans are the way forward for a while. like you only need to win the rebuy once and you have like 60 $7 buy in's or 120 $3.50 buy ins.

playing fields so big 4,000 to 12,000 runners your going to get so many coolers and hit so much variance it obviously hurts alot more and again mega time consuming.

Even playing the $15.00 180s it would onlybe a matter of time before a solid player wins the $700+ for first place and in the process making small profits.

Really Really think the big tournaments are going to be a rarity in 2014 :)

Another suggestion... 'let go' of the thinking about how much 1st place pays & how many buyins that'd be, etc. etc. Also, if you know you're going to be sitting on computer for awhile & playing a long'ish' session, 'let go' of the thinking 'play it for 4- to 5 hours for only a min. cash' 'play for 3hrs. & bustout before bubble' 'get through 10,000 players only to bustout with AA aipf when guy 5bai over my 4bet w AA & then f'n hits his 2-outer with 99.... it would've put me in top 3 with only 100 left in it!'.
Fk all that stuff. Change the thinking over to > the longrun. And just keep trying to play as best you can in each & every given situation. Let go of the stuff you have no control over (including 'how much do/can I win here'). That stuff will just 'be' or will take care of itself in time ('if' you put in the work!).
gl
 
Poker Orifice

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"There's only so much heartache you can take.. what is the solution"

Honestly the solution is to not play 'tournament play' period because this is totally standard. Part of being a tournament player is handling it & accepting it.

There's going to be a gazillion times where you play optimally & have sh1t results for long stretches.
 
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I have had this feeling a couple of times. I usually just take a few days off then come back, play a small mtt and if i still have the feeling, take a few more days off
 
trolaAa

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Hello to all
I know this is not the place for but I am soon to this forum and I can not believe how much are helping me all those posts that everyone does.
I have exactly the same problem as cotta777, I'm not an expert or a pro but I think all great successes come after a long time playing with many losses, victories and disappointments.
 
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