Is a strategy really necessary? And my way of play.

Chipsteal_jj · May 21, 2014

I have been playing poker for a long time now, but I've started playing mtt's only recently. Around a month ago. At first I was doing good and was playing alright. I was playing with play money chips and wasnt really trying to win, I was just there for fun. Then I came across freerolls with tickets to win for cash prizes (pokerstars). I played these and was determined to come in the top to win a ticket.

I had no tactics, I didnt know much about strategies or about pot odds or other math stuff. I just knew how to win hands without considering if its a good call/bet or not.

I played 1 or 2 freerolls a day and was doing alright and i won a ticket for round 2 after 2-3 days . I played the second round and thought that this time I have to get to the final table atleast. Unfortunately i lost in the early stages.

Then i started looking for tips, strategies and guides to improve my game. I read alot of them, watched videos on youtube and learned about pot odds and stuff.
Even after spending hours of time trying to improve my game. I still get similar results to what I got earlier.

So my question is, is a strategy really necessary?

A lot of people say that you should play tight in the early stages and shove it all in with AKs/99+ pre-flop but even if I do, there are chances my opponent has something like Q7o and the flop comes 7Q7. Even if I have 80% chances of winning. If in the later stages the same situation comes up, in 1 out of 5 shoves I'll lose atleast.

What I prefer is, if I get cards like QQ for eg, i wont raise pre-flop but call and see how many other people are raising. If a K or A hits the flop. I'll bet a small amount to see if my opponent has got it or not and try to get reads by the way he calls/re-raises. And if my pair is the best with a draw or dry board, I'll bet large so that my opponent doesnt get a chance to see turn for cheap which forces most of the time to fold. This is an example of the sort of game i play.

Sometimes when I have nothing, I raise with cards like 85o, 73o etc and whether or not I get the nuts or 8 high, i still keep raising and try to bluff my opponents for a few rounds. Most of them fold pre-flop when raised to and 50-80% they dont get the cards they were looking for which increases my stack by more than 30% atleast in less than 5 minutes.
Even though this may sound like Its a strategy, I play bad hands when i get reads on my opponent that they have bad cards too. And they same way that I bluff is sometimes the way I play the nuts.

The way I play early stages is the way I continue my game in late stages and try to confuse my opponents as much as possible whether I am a lucky fish or just good enough to win (I'm not sure either). I dont think that playing tight in early stages or trying to double up your chips is really important or needed.

I might be playing a wierd type of poker or just playing like a fish. Even if I follow strategies and play tight in early, call/raise with mid ranges in later stages etc etc. I get the same or worse results.
Again I ask, Is a strategy really necessary. Also please share any though you have to how I can improve my game or what I'm doing is wrong and please if you hate how I play please let me know why.

Thank you for reading this
Chipsteal_

rifflemao · May 21, 2014

Having an overall tournament strategy is probably good for beginner players as a starting point. I used to read Chris Moneymaker's SnG strategy before playing STT's with coworkers, and fared pretty well because it helped me eliminate common beginner mistakes like bet-sizing errors and playing too many spec hands.

It seems like your strategy is to look for creative ways to win pots and keep your opponents confused. Sounds good!

A thought for improvement:

Chipsteal_jj said:
I just knew how to win hands without considering if its a good call/bet or not.

That could eventually be your biggest source of leaks, and is still mine. Every move should have a clear purpose and your "line" or story must make sense. If it doesn't, a thinking player will easily take pots away from you and force adjustments to your game.

teepack · May 21, 2014

I like to play MTTs, and my strategy is a little different. I don't limp into hands with QQ. I will raise preflop substantially to try to eliminate players with bad hands lucking into a flop. Then if an A or K comes up on the flop, I will proceed a a little cautiously, depending upon position, stack size, etc.

I also generally play a little looser early because you can get into hands for cheaper, but then tighten up as the tourney goes along.

Jacki Burkhart · May 22, 2014

It sounds to me like you just need the type of situational knowledge that comes with experience.
my specific replies to your strategies are in red below:

Chipsteal_jj said:
I have been playing poker for a long time now, but I've started playing mtt's only recently. Around a month ago. At first I was doing good and was playing alright. I was playing with play money chips and wasnt really trying to win, I was just there for fun. Then I came across freerolls with tickets to win for cash prizes (Pokerstars). I played these and was determined to come in the top to win a ticket.

I had no tactics, I didnt know much about strategies or about pot odds or other math stuff. I just knew how to win hands without considering if its a good call/bet or not. like it or not, you really should have a basic grasp for pot odds. for instance if there is a flush draw and you have top pair...you need to bet enough to not "price in" anyone with a flush draw.a cheater way around this is that if you always bet about 2/3 the pot you will deny proper odds to any drawing hand. (you also might be risking too much in situations you are behind, but you gotta start somewhere!)

I played 1 or 2 freerolls a day and was doing alright and i won a ticket for round 2 after 2-3 days . I played the second round and thought that this time I have to get to the final table atleast. Unfortunately i lost in the early stages.

Then i started looking for tips, strategies and guides to improve my game. I read alot of them, watched videos on youtube and learned about pot odds and stuff.
Even after spending hours of time trying to improve my game. I still get similar results to what I got earlier. Every time I learn something new and try to incorporate it into my game, my game usually SUFFERS for a short while. it doesn't immediately improve or even stay the same. I call that "growing pains"

So my question is, is a strategy really necessary? well, I think yes. but your strategy can be quite vague and still be effective. There are strategies and tactics. a stategy might be as simple as "Keep pots small when out of position" and a tactic would be "raise my button and fold my SB"Or a strategy can be even more vague, something like "be aggressive" which is almost useless advice because it's so vague it's hard to implement. But what might a tactic be for "be aggressive" look like? How about you're never allowed to limp and you're only allowed to call ONCE per orbit. Every other hand you must raise or fold. That is a tactic for being aggressive

A lot of people say that you should play tight in the early stages and shove it all in with AKs/99+ pre-flop but even if I do, there are chances my opponent has something like Q7o and the flop comes 7Q7. Even if I have 80% chances of winning. If in the later stages the same situation comes up, in 1 out of 5 shoves I'll lose atleast. That's the facts jack. the math is on your side. If you could somehow manage to always get it in with 80% equity then you'd win 80% of the time. That's good! there's no big name pros who win 80% of the tourneys they play...don't scoff at 80% Vegas is built off of puny 1-25% margins. an entire neon oasis amidst a desolate landscape fueled by edges much much much much smaller than your 80%

What I prefer is, if I get cards like QQ for eg, i wont raise pre-flop but call and see how many other people are raising. OK. HERE'S MY BIG ADVICE TO YOU: In nearly all cases, it is better to be the aggressor than the caller. You may be playing too straightforwardly, just waiting to catch cards. When you raise you have more ways to win. You can win because they fold, you can win because you have the best hand, or you can buy yourself a free card later that lets you improve to the best hand. When you call, you can only win by having the best hand.If a K or A hits the flop. I'll bet a small amount to see if my opponent has got it or not and try to get reads by the way he calls/re-raises. And if my pair is the best with a draw or dry board, I'll bet large so that my opponent doesnt get a chance to see turn for cheap which forces most of the time to fold. This is an example of the sort of game i play.

Sometimes when I have nothing, I raise with cards like 85o, 73o etc and whether or not I get the nuts or 8 high, i still keep raising and try to bluff my opponents for a few rounds. Most of them fold pre-flop when raised to and 50-80% they dont get the cards they were looking for which increases my stack by more than 30% atleast in less than 5 minutes.
Even though this may sound like Its a strategy, I play bad hands when i get reads on my opponent that they have bad cards too. And they same way that I bluff is sometimes the way I play the nuts.

The way I play early stages is the way I continue my game in late stages and try to confuse my opponents as much as possible whether I am a lucky fish or just good enough to win (I'm not sure either). I dont think that playing tight in early stages or trying to double up your chips is really important or needed.

I might be playing a wierd type of poker or just playing like a fish. Even if I follow strategies and play tight in early, call/raise with mid ranges in later stages etc etc. I get the same or worse results. I'd focus less on the stage of the tournament and more on your stack size and the relative stack size. the shorter your stack, the more aggressive and risky you need to be.
Again I ask, Is a strategy really necessary. Also please share any though you have to how I can improve my game or what I'm doing is wrong and please if you hate how I play please let me know why.

Thank you for reading this
Chipsteal_

cotta777 · May 22, 2014

I dont think general strategy is necessary.

but Its important to take advantage of strategy, I know I can get away with being aggressive against slow starters. and manipulating people into decisions because of strategy

its about thinking outside the box..

If you start playing like a maniac alot of players are going to tighten up waiting for a chance to catch you - in that time you will of amounted a mass of chips.

You can show rags after playing like a maniac and continue picking off players....
Then suddenly slow down and start playing strong hands the perception of you will be of wide range, loose
90% of the players you meet wont realise you switch gears and will pay you off.

Thats just an example.

again thinking outside the box,

''what can I do to alter my image and blatently take advantage of players making adjustments to counteract my style''

The opposite can work, play passive/weak deliberately once or twice - or just remember the times and spots you have been weak and next time your strong play the hand the same

Thats the question you wanna be asking yourself all the time

duggs · May 22, 2014

will happily play anyone who thinks there is no strategy.

BearPlay · May 22, 2014

Without knowing it, a lot of your plays resemble a technique called "small ball", which can be an effective strategy but it is usually recommended for the most advanced of players who are post-flop experts, because it can also strip your roll in a hurry if you don't know what you're doing.

Solid advice already given above by others. Good luck.

Arjonius · May 22, 2014

The first things a beginner should do are to learn how to play a solid TAG style, and to exercise enough self-discipline to do so. When you're just starting out, what makes you think you'll consistently be able to out-think and outplay people who, even if they're not much better than you, do have more experience? And that's before we even consider the opponents who play decently.

Year after year, I see no shortage of new players who exhibit varying degrees of FPS - Fancy Play Syndrome. In effect, they try to run when they should be crawling. In the vast majority of cases, this is either unproductive or counter-productive.

hffjd2000 · May 22, 2014

Of course knowing poker strategy is very essential.

But that is just a tip of the iceberg.

You have to watch and observe things. Then, there is the so called adjustment phase. Example: that particular strategy might be good to that game but might be bad to the other game.

Its better to have strategy knowledge compared to none. But again, you have to adjust your game since poker is really a situational game, especially if its online.

Live, it mostly adapt those bookline strategies though.

taban13 · May 22, 2014

totally agree with you always need to play according to the situation and depending on your opponents. What may be good in one case may be unacceptable in another.

Martinez · May 22, 2014

MTT's are my regular game. I have forund that playing TAG at the beginning of tourneys helps the most especially when playing freerolls. It gets rid most of the donks.
If I can double up in first part of a tourney I am happy. Second part allows you open up your range of hands and play a bit more aggressivly trying to make the money. From there on in, just pick your spots and hope for the best.
Good luck.

Jacki Burkhart · May 22, 2014

hffjd2000 said:
Its better to have strategy knowledge compared to none. But again, you have to adjust your game since poker is really a situational game, especially if its online.

Live, it mostly adapt those bookline strategies though.

Not sure I agree with this last bit contrasting live vs online.

I find that live is much more a game about "the people" than the cards when compared to online. Because of this, constant adjustments are needed live.

True, adjustments are also needed online, but because online is more about the cards and position; You don't get into as many leveling wars, etc.

duggs · May 22, 2014

missjacki said:
Not sure I agree with this last bit contrasting live vs online.

I find that live is much more a game about "the people" than the cards when compared to online. Because of this, constant adjustments are needed live.

True, adjustments are also needed online, but because online is more about the cards and position; You don't get into as many leveling wars, etc.

Live is easier so a less robust strategy is required

Jacki Burkhart · May 22, 2014

duggs said:
Live is easier so a less robust strategy is required

I see this idea/thought/bias/fact being posted a lot but still, I'm not really sure it's true...

Perhaps I should start a different thread to talk about this?

I'm curious about the nitty gritty details of this assumption

JPoling · May 22, 2014

After reading your post, my conclusion is...will you come play at a cash table withe please?

Jacki Burkhart · May 22, 2014

missjacki said:
I see this idea/thought/bias/fact being posted a lot but still, I'm not really sure it's true...

Perhaps I should start a different thread to talk about this?

I'm curious about the nitty gritty details of this assumption

Ok I started a different thread, instead of derailing....which is what I WANTED to do...

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-poker-59/cast-your-vote-live-easier-than-245593/

Chipsteal_jj · May 23, 2014

I tried playing aggressive and tight and it did work pretty well for me. I only called/raised the top 5-10% of the hands. All your advice and tips i had kept in mind and tried not to play like a fish. Im not new to poker but new to mtts and Ive reached final table 3 times only in freerolls.
I agree now that a strategy is necessary but keeping in mind how the table is playing and on the basis of my stack.
Also duggs and jpoling i would play you and beat you but only if i had more than 4 cents in my BR

In late stages im going to start playing less agressive as I always get a bad beat.

Thanka for helping me everyone.

MediaBLITZ · May 23, 2014

Bottom line - you will need multiple strategies to successfully navigate different fields and games.

Arjonius · May 24, 2014

MediaBLITZ said:
Bottom line - you will need multiple strategies to successfully navigate different fields and games.

^This^

It's not a matter of choosing a strategy and sticking with it no matter what happens. Even at a single table, every opponent isn't the same. Does it make sense to play exactly the same way vs all of them?

bizzsky · Nov 20, 2014

i was told it's good to 3.5x on every single riaes you make.
you can bluff and show, then then when youreally have goods, you're 3.5 looks like the rest of the other junk

love that omaha · Nov 20, 2014

Well Phil Ivey has no set strategy - he just adapts to how his opponents are playing. So maybe you are on to something - remember your Cardschat family when you are playing 1k 2k.

GWU73 · Nov 20, 2014

If you fail to plan, plan to fail.

Jacki Burkhart · Nov 20, 2014

love that omaha said:
Well Phil Ivey has no set strategy - he just adapts to how his opponents are playing...

I'm curios how you know this?

mendiolacubicle · Nov 20, 2014

Strategy is like a frame for future actions, we just have to get or at least establish basic strategies to make our decision making easier. 😁

duggs · Nov 21, 2014

missjacki said:
I'm curios how you know this?

he doesn't. its also not a good definition of a strategy. a strategy doesn't restrict us to playing our ranges exactly the same in all situations

Is a strategy really necessary? And my way of play.

Chipsteal_jj

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rifflemao

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teepack

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Jacki Burkhart

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cotta777

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duggs

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Arjonius

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hffjd2000

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taban13

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Martinez

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Jacki Burkhart

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duggs

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Jacki Burkhart

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JPoling

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long winded rambler...

Chipsteal_jj

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MediaBLITZ

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Arjonius

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