Stealing blinds and Antes - when is it not worth the risk?

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DrSparky

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Hi all,

A thought I had while playing my last STT (Live pub game), is there any general guidance for a what 'M' score you should stop trying to steal the blinds and Antes?

In my last game I had an average stack and some good stealing cards, but because the blinds were so high I felt I couldn't risk going for it because if I got called I'd have to play semi-good cards for potentially all of my stack?

That brought me onto another thought - would it be ok if you're the PFR going for a steal and you get called by one of the blinds to check the flop if you hit nothing? Or is the better play to maintain you're standard rules for C-betting? My head says maintain you're C-betting strategy as if you were PFR with your normal range, but my heart says it's very risky!

Thanks - Sparky
 
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Flsnookman

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I am also learning the game but I feel like defending ones blinds is a losing proposition most of the time. I find if I defend the button I do better. As far as stealing the blinds and antes, if it's late in a tourny and they are big you will probably have to work a bit harder to steal them. I get very nervous when the blinds are big and I raise and get flat called. I will almost always c-bet if I raise the pot from a blind unless a flat caller raises me 1st. Then I am thinking is the caller on a draw and trying to control the pot with an early bet or do they have a monster. This is probably no help whatsoever but good luck.
 
aa88wildbill

aa88wildbill

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It's very hard to steal, in them bar room games. They will almost always call you. I found the only way it works is to establish yourself during the game that you are a tight player that always has it. Then be in the right position, and make a big raise.
 
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emirlidan

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I usually only steal blinds when I'm already at a chip advantage

that way If there is a call or a reraise if I'm not comfortable I can just fold
 
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bnasp2

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You probably need to provide more info. Mostly:
- was it near the bubble, or already ITM?
- how many blinds was your stack (what was your options for 3-bets, 4-bets)
- and also, how you see your postflop game. Are you more strong in postpflop, or do you prefer push-fold agains the players you are stealing from
 
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DrSparky

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Hi,

Thanks for all the input - this wasn't about any specific hand as such, just a thought I had while playing...

I'm still getting experience in my post-flop game, but my worry was that I was going to have to potentially risk all of my stack on a steal attempt...

Because where I play the blinds go up every 15mins it's common place for an average stack to be around the 10BB mark, so there is a point where there are just lots of push/fold decisions and if you're going for a steal you may either get raised by an all-in shove or at the very least someone is going to call your C-bet at which point you're probably pot committed and if you haven't connected with the flop you could be going out with marginal cards...
 
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alexb87

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I agree with aa88wildbill.//.. I like too establish myself as a tight player before trying to steal antes and blinds
 
SicKBeATz

SicKBeATz

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I think you got it backwards. If the blinds and antes are really high then it is worth the risk, whereas when they're really low they're not which is why a lot of players play tighter in the early stages. Antes and blinds going up are done so to loosen up the game.
 
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DrSparky

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I think you got it backwards. If the blinds and antes are really high then it is worth the risk, whereas when they're really low they're not which is why a lot of players play tighter in the early stages. Antes and blinds going up are done so to loosen up the game.

Thanks for the input - I hadn't thought of it from that way...

Do you prefer to be deep-stacked to steal blinds? is there a rough M score you won't steal blinds below?
 
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indahood193

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you need to steal blinds with every stack- short stack average stack and big stack. when you have a short stack it is just a fact you have to shove to steal the blinds. i usually shove to steal blinds with a stack up to around 15bb's, anything more i usually min raise. you can shove with a wide range and sometimes any two cards if the blinds are very tight. with an average stack it is okay to steal with hands that don't play too badly post flop if you do get called- suited connectors, Q 10s etc, but mostly do this in position when you are near the button. and with a big stack, especially late on in a tournament if the table is playing tight and passive you can raise over 50% of hands imo, depends on how weak the players are. gl
 
MediaBLITZ

MediaBLITZ

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I think you got it backwards. If the blinds and antes are really high then it is worth the risk, whereas when they're really low they're not which is why a lot of players play tighter in the early stages. Antes and blinds going up are done so to loosen up the game.
True dat.
The only real discussion is whether it is worth it in early stages.
The later it gets into the tournament, it not only becomes more worthwhile - it becomes essential to stay alive.
So one philosophy is to NOT steal early to help promote a tight image. If you are stealing blinds early (and if you can get away with it - more power to ya) it can hurt your fold equity/credibility later on when it is much more important and costly to make those steals. You would rather have your opponent think, "hmmm, he hasn't been trying to steal blinds up until now so I better give him the benefit of the doubt" VERSUS "that dirty cuss has been trying to steal my blinds all night long - I must defend". Of course there are those times where you really want them thinking the latter.
 
SicKBeATz

SicKBeATz

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True dat.
The only real discussion is whether it is worth it in early stages.
The later it gets into the tournament, it not only becomes more worthwhile - it becomes essential to stay alive.
So one philosophy is to NOT steal early to help promote a tight image. If you are stealing blinds early (and if you can get away with it - more power to ya) it can hurt your fold equity/credibility later on when it is much more important and costly to make those steals. You would rather have your opponent think, "hmmm, he hasn't been trying to steal blinds up until now so I better give him the benefit of the doubt" VERSUS "that dirty cuss has been trying to steal my blinds all night long - I must defend". Of course there are those times where you really want them thinking the latter.

Thats one philosophy but another is getting a donk image where the other players think "I know he's got nothin but he never folds so I'll let him have it" lol I know I've been that player thinking that on numerous occasions.
 
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kaispen

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Aggressive play refers to betting and raising. Passive play refers to checking and calling. Unless passive play is being used deceptively as mentioned above, aggressive play is generally considered stronger than passive play because of the bluff value of bets and raises and because it offers more opportunities for your opponents to make mistakes.
 
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kaispen

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In poker, a steal is a type of a bluff, a raise during the first betting round made with an inferior hand and meant to make other players fold superior hands because of shown strength. A steal is normally either an "ante steal" or "blind steal" (depending on whether the game being played uses antes or blinds).
Steals are done with hands less valuable than what might normally be considered a raising hand, normally a below average one, with the hope that the few players remaining will not have a hand worth calling the raise, thereby winning the antes or blinds without further action. This play is used either in late position after several people have folded, or when the game is short-handed. Steals happen more often in tournament situations due to the escalating ante/blind structure making the starting pot quite valuable.
 
EchoEllis

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i used to attempt to steal on the button with ANY 2 cards, but this wasent profitable, now i steal with any hands with potential, not min raise; 2.5x the bb. the later in the tourny it gets, the more successful it gets and the looser your raises can get, if they call u bet 3/4 - full pot c bet, if they call u give up on the hand. If your deepstacked u steal steal steal. I dont attempt a steal when im down to 10-15 bbs, i play tighter than a otters pocket and shove when the times right.
 
steveiam

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I think you got it backwards. If the blinds and antes are really high then it is worth the risk, whereas when they're really low they're not which is why a lot of players play tighter in the early stages. Antes and blinds going up are done so to loosen up the game.
I agree with this. +EV
 
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DrSparky

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Dear all,

Many thanks for the replies, as your stack gets shorter (Or less BB's in turbo's) do you think there comes a point where you have to stop stealing and wait for the opportunity to shove profitably or should stealing plays always remain an aspect of your thinking?
 
quintass

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It is always a good idea to steal blinds, when it is advantageous to do so. Stealing $10 & $20 blinds most times will not make a big difference in your tournament position. It makes no sense to me to steal early on in a tourney when blinds are at 5,10,15 25. If you happen to be holding decent cards, just play the hand out, you may win a couple of hundred instead of a measely $15 or $20. Treat it as you would any other financial move, it must be "cost effective". Most effective blind stealing occurs when blinds are as close to, or at their highest.
 
MediaBLITZ

MediaBLITZ

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Thats one philosophy but another is getting a donk image where the other players think "I know he's got nothin but he never folds so I'll let him have it" lol I know I've been that player thinking that on numerous occasions.

Let's see if I have this right -

He's got nuthin'-
He never folds-
So I am going to fold to a steal situation based on this?
 
NeverEnough

NeverEnough

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It's very hard to steal, in them bar room games. They will almost always call you. I found the only way it works is to establish yourself during the game that you are a tight player that always has it. Then be in the right position, and make a big raise.
I don't play bar games, but I am a very tight player & it seems that every time I try to steal I get at least 2 callers every time. :mad:
 
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kwhilborn

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My answer.

Stealing is more a short handed (6 person max) type table thing. Be wary in tables with 9+ players like in tourneys.

I would advise that on a 9 person table with everyone folding to your button then a steal attempt is okay, and I would even go all in with any pair or A-10 or better if challenged. On a long tourney though with a few thousand players you will eventually lose playing like that though. A BB special will bite you.

Another thing to watch for when trying to steal is their stack size.

Imagine you have 10k in chips (20xBB) as the BB is $500 bet. Now imagine you are trying to steal this $500 BB from a player with only $2500 left in his Stack (5XBB) He almost has to throw all in with any small pair or Ace at this point because he is in danger of blinding out soon. So imagine the play. You have 10k and try to steal the $500 BB from the button by raising $1500. Then this player is forced to go all in as you should have noticed.

Sometimes when you have a chip lead it is better to sit out of little Blind thefts unless you have a hand worth throwing all in. It is easy to see a 10k stack get whittled down to a few k simply from all the people throwing all in against you getting lucky and hitting a set on the river with their 7-2 or ace rag.
 
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groggy44

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Bar Room Poker

a little under 10 years ago, i first started playing poker in bar etc. Usually it was a freeroll for cash or prizes. Sometimes, the prizes were very good
A few helpful hints, do not try and treat it as money poker or online money poker. Most of the people are there to socialize and have a good time rather than play well. You can exploit that edge. Another thing is most of them are calling stations. There's no reason to bluff, they will call you when you hit the nuts. I'm assuming there are not any antes involved and yes the blinds go up very quickly. My best strategy was what I call 'Catch and Smash' poker. Sit back, wait for a pretty good hand, raise preflop, regardless of position, and if you hit the flop hard, either pound them with 3 barrels, or if they are hyperaggressive check and let them to and steal. either way is pretty good. When you have AA, just raise 4x or 6x or something. If you hit trips, keeping pounding them. Make them pay dearly for their draws. You aren't going to win every time, but I played in bars for almost 3 years and even won some trips to play in real money casino tourneys on a few occasions. You don't really have to get tricky. they will call you down with 2nd pair under Q all day long.
Other than that, grab a beer, have some foamy fun buddy and enjoy
 
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