Stalling as a strategy?

If you're involved in a tournament online and have a fairly secure chip lead, is stalling a worthwhile strategy (continuously timing out)

Of course it's annoying, but it seems to be pretty common in freerolls.

Stalling is a little more than annoying... not so ethical imo

If you were trying to find out if it was somehow a "strategy"...you need to include much more info such as field size, level structure, your table characteristics....

that being said you would have a near impossible time making an argument that stalling is somehow a +EV "strategy" for the chip leader

Its not a strategy, its simple cowardice and a sorry excuse for poker.

I have noticed that a lot of people do it trying to make the money when there are just a few people left on the bubble. I was playing in the Satellite to the Ferguson(top 100 get 1 Tourney Dollar) the other night and I had a comfortable amount of chips to not have to play in anymore hands and still make the cash. Everyone at my table waited for the last possible second to fold their hands or just time out, except for me. I took advantage of everyones cowardice and stole about half of the blinds and bounced out 3 more players to get us closer to the money. I also busted the person who was on the bubble and they didn't like that too much. I went into another tourney after the satellite and the person I busted in 101st followed me there to yell at me for pushing them all in and beating them with pocket kings to their queen 10 offsuit, saying something about me not having to do that and I should have just folded and let them make the money. I just laughed and told them to go kill themselves if they thought what I did was such a personal tragedy.

I play in double up sng's and if I get over twice the initial chip amount, then I take my full allotted time for each action. I want the blinds to escalate faster and put pressure on the smaller stacks to make a move with marginal cards. doesn't matter whether I accumulate any more chips same prize for all of the winners.

by stalling, you put pressure on short stacks by raising the blinds quicker (compared to the number of hands played that is. this makes them unable to play hands, and instead only leaves them with the option of going all-in), or if you are the short stack, you can relieve pressure off yourself by decreasing the speed of the next hand coming to you

i don't see what is "unethical" about doing this. in poker, you want to use every resource you have to your advantage, and this is one of them.

someone called it "cowardice"...is not wanting to be the bubble boy really cowardice? i mean, i sure wouldn't want to, and i would do whatever i can to make that not happen. imo, you are just playing smart.

I'd rather go out on the bubble than play my poker game like a sissy that is afraid to make moves and miss cashing. People always say "Don't play with scared money", I think that also applies in this situation. If you are scared to not make the cash then you need to reassess your priorities.

You can fool yourself into believeing that its "smart poker" but we all know the truth. Until you can learn how to lose, especially on the bubble, then you can never know how to win.

Definitely you're selling your pride when you do this, but it is a strategy. When playing an MTT with hundreds of people, many people do this to make the money if only a few short stacks need to get out. However, usually you're playing hand for hand and you don't really need to burn the clock. Also, if the blinds are going up in less than a minute, and the BB is about to put someone all-in, this is also a good way to increase your chances that that person bubbles out so you can make the money. However, if you are also short stack in risk to bubble, keep in mind there is still a good chance that person can double up or more with the antes, because a big stack may call with a mediocre hand and the person all-in may actually have a good hand. Then, you are forced to make a play when it comes to your turn or you're going to bubble. I see some people burn the clock early game, and it pisses me off. Keep in mind, however, some people play like 8 tables at a time. It's easy to see who does it on purpose.

I think its unsportsmanlike, cowardly and unethical.

I hate it when shortstack stall to try and crawl into the money because the only thing that they are successfully doing is increasing the blinds before it gets to them. hellooo ?? thats a dumb idea.

I would like to invent a device that punches people in the face over the internet when they do this and become rich and famous

Maybe I'm just trying to explain pride and dignity to a bunch of young kids. The kids that have started to come of age in the last 10 years. Kids that got a trophy or award just for participating in an activity. Kids that never performed a physical activity without a helmet and knee pads. Kids who never left their house because they were too busy playing video games. Kids that were sheltered from the harsh realities of life and the world by their parents. Kids that think getting the reward makes them a winner. Kids that strive for mediocrity instead of being extraordinary and don't know the difference. Kids who are told that they are special everyday when in fact they are just "special". Kids that have an over-inflated ego and self-worth when in fact they haven't done anything to deserve such a thing. Kids who are going to grow-up just to be another person that gets in the way of those of us who are trying to get shit done.

When I was growing up I had to learn how to do things well to get an award or trophy. I got laughed at and teased when I wasn't good at things, it just motivated me to get better so I could laugh at those who I surpassed along the way. When I played sports as a kid I only got a trophy for winning not for just participating. The only helmet and pads I had as a kid were for football, I had to go out and experience pain to learn my lesson about things I should and shouldn't do. My parents used to spank me when I was a little asshole, and I deserved it everytime. I just wish I wanted children so I could spank them the way I was as a kid.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you had dignity you would play the same before the bubble as you do after it. The ends don't always justify the means. Stop taking the easy road. Learn the difference between earning your wins and twisting the rules to the breaking point for a cheap win. Everytime you play like that you sacrifice a little piece of yourself that you can never get back. So take the loss, chalk it up to a learning experience and never try to do it again.

Amen and hallelujah, brother.

Stalling sucks.

I play to win. Period. Whether I have a 1000 to 1 chip lead or short stacked. If I was that far ahead I might be more inclined to be more selective in the hands that I play, but if I was dealt something good then I would definately play it. stalling/sitting out is rude, arrogant and stupid.

I wish there would be a 'sit-out' rule where if you sit out more than 25 hands you forfeit. But people like this would probably find a way around that as well.

Stalling is a perfectly acceptable and useabale tactic, depending on stack size, bubbles and payout structure. Your time bank is yours to use any way you wish. Whiners who want to play fast while you think things out are too funny, they should learn to read a book. A good side effect is you can get them steaming and making mistakes to punish you lol. Any tools provided, that can move you up in money, are good and should be used (with discretion). Nothing unethical about it. In certain MTTs, where a large percentage of the field pays, I recommend slowing things down under right circumstances.

Good point. But there are situations where it is definitely +EV.

Common practice, extremelly annoying, cant the poker sites monitor this practice and discpline users for this practice?

If you are actually playing in hands and you slow it down to give yourself time to think, that is fine. To constantly fold after taking all of your alloted time is just a stupid waste of time, yours and mine. When it takes 3 minutes to play a single hand online is rediculous. People who waste time in hopes of making the cash will have karma come back around and bite them in the ass.

Stop aspiring to mediocre goals. Play for the win or get out of the way.

ok this one i have to speak on.
pride and dignity...are NOT part of poker...
second if you have to stall to cash why not?
look at it this way ...if someone has a gun and calls u all kinds of names for running away, if you stand and get shot , is ur pride and dignity worth it?

go for the win or get out of the way?? lol i would rather go home with something than nothing, but i dunno that may be my "pride" speaking

Pride and dignity are very much a part of poker because they are a part of life in everything you do. Your analogy about the gun is irrelevant in this case, one thing is about a game and the other is about your continued existence in this world.

By making those statements I will guess that you are one of the Kids I was talking about in one of my previous posts. I can tell because the ideas that I put forth seem to be completely over your head.

You said : "i would rather go home with something than nothing, but i dunno that may be my "pride" speaking". That statement is the exact thing I am talking about. You would rather strive for mediocrity while sacrificing your dignity and pride, rather than play with pride and dignity and maybe go out before winning "something". You sound like one of the Kids who wants a reward for showing up and not for actually accomplishing something substantial.

Maybe there are way more ball busting mommies out there who have sucked all of the pride out of the daddies and they don't know how to teach their children pride, dignity and self respect. Just a thought.

Please dont stall, its very annoying

lol!!! gspicoli, i dont mean to sound like a jerk to you, but you sound like "that" guy, you know the one who ended up a bum because he wanted it all or nothing at all, do u really listen to what your saying? hell, i might be 22 but you sound like a kid to me. all your telling me is that if i cant have it all , take nothing, that sounds a little absurd to me.

That is not what I am saying at all. Pay attention I don't know if I will be able to break this down any more plainly for you. Play like you have heart and like you are not afraid to lose. Like I said before, I would rather go out on the bubble than play in a way that takes away from who I am and the way I think I should compete. If I make the cash and I don't win I'm fine with that knowing that I played every hand in a manner that I feel didn't cheapen what I accomplished.

To me, I hear you saying "It doesn't matter how I play, it is the end result that matters". That attitude is the farthest thing from where I stand and what I believe.

I have been involved with sports and competition all my life. I was taught that if I leave everything I have out on the field then I have nothing to hang my head down about regardless of the outcome. If I am stalling to make the cash (striving for mediocrity), hoping that the last couple of people get busted before I do then I see that as a personal loss. If I am waiting for other people to lose as opposed to playing to win then it is a personal loss. In that case I didn't leave everything out on the field and I have something to hang my head about even if I win.

I hope that is plain enough english for you.

well karma came back and bit me on the ars
i started playing freerolls with $0 balance
and i would always time out to get to the money
becos of karma biteing me in the arse i now have a backroll of $1400 down from $1420 DAM KARMA lol

I agree with GSpicoli to an extent, I'm the type of player that when the bubble looms, I pounce all over the shortstacks to build up a lead.

I play to win, I dont play for the money, or rather, I don't play to limp into the money.

HOWEVER!!! That being said, there are times that I know my stack won't hold out for me to last much longer than the 1st level of cash.

I will then be happy to limp into the money and then be assured that I have enough money to try again sometime, but this has NEVER EVER been reason enough for me to an idiot and stall.

I'll even check the fold button in advance so that the blinds don't increase and so that I can get to my next hand quicker and decide if that is the hand I am going to double up with.

I also believe that there's always the chance that someone else makes a mistake and I had better fold in a hurry so that hopefully there'll be action that will allow me to breathe a bit.

I never feel good about limping into the money but hey, sometimes I just suck in my pride and try again next time. But for the most part I ALWAYS play to win and that attitude has allowed me to cash in some games more than if I had just limped into the money.

I play according to my M ratio - if my M ratio is over 20 I am playing my normal game, stealing blinds where I can and making plays, if its under 7, I am openshoving with a combination of position and any group 1,2,3 or 4 holdings regardless of how close I am to the bubble.

But I refuse to stall the action.

If thats how you do your thing well good for you if it works, even though you come off as a parasite.

i have an example for you...

2 more people till the bubble, and you have 1 chip left. the average chipstack is 25000. now according to you, we should go all-in and, as you suggest, try to "win it all." good luck with that! i'm using all my time and folding until the blinds inevitably come my way. and you think i'm some kind of kid who doesn't know how to live life?

and by the way, you should leave your pride on the floor when playing poker. it makes you play worse. you should read the poker mindest

I guess some of you guys never play satellites or sngs where the cash prize is the same for everyone. It doesn't make sense to let the short stacks see more hands at less espensive blind levels if they are only one or two that need to be elimnated. There are certain circumstances when "stalling" or playing slow can be a powerful tool to help eliminate the short stacks.

For the "pride" and "dignity" posts. Poker is a game about winning money period. It is not an athletic competition, etc. Get over yourself.

Another example of the kids that just don't get it.

That is a horrible example: eventually you are going to have to go all in. Eventually the blinds are going to hit you and you will be all-in so why not wait for a decent hand before the blinds come back around and then commit your chip. My problem is with people who stall for time hoping and praying that they make the cash when extremely short stacked all they are doing is delaying the inevitable.

For the record you don't need to leave your pride at the door when you play poker. You need to leave your ego at the door, there is a huge difference. Your ego is what will get the best of you at the table.

Any of the teams you ever play on try to "run" out the clock when they had the lead? If you ever played football, then your comments are idiotic because the whole idea behind a "running" team is that they domintate the clock to prevent their opponents from having an opportunity to win. Using the "clock" in poker is no different.

I guess that some people don't understand that if people are forced to see more hands the more likely they are to get busted out, not the other way around. If the short stack is forced to see the blinds every 5 minutes as opposed to every 15 minutes the more likely they will get busted earlier.

Can we please not cloud up the threads with personal attacks at other members that have nothing at all to do with the original post. I believe this thread was started to discuss whether or not stalling was an effective strategy. Your first post was enough, a little excessive but enough. There is no need to go on trying to put in cheap shots and personally attacking other members just because you got beat up in school. Who cares? Not me!!! Let it go. There is no need to post 7 different replies in the same thread. This is evident since by the last one you were reduced to defending your own idea on how much "pride and dignity" you think you have. Just make your comments about the topic at hand and move on. If you've got more to say, you have the ability to start another thread. I don't think your opinion of how many "ball busting mommies" there are or whether or not your "pride and dignity" will let you live a life of "mediocracy" have anything at all to do with poker. And there is no need to come back with cheap shots at me on here because unlike you I have better things to do with my time than to comment in this thread 7 times, so I am (as should you) am moving on to the next one. So I won't be back to read them.

RIVERBOATRAT
I only did it to get started
Now i play mainly $10 sngs
If you think i come across as a parasite thats fine
I guess my above post i was being a bit smart arse
However i think whatever works in fine
Poker is a game of skill luck and putting people on tilt
When you sit down to a game there are no rules / your at war with the other players anything goes
And evryone is at a differant skill level
It is what makes poker so much fun
To say it is wronge for someone to play in a way that you dont like is just silly
Anyway i do not play like that anymore lol
Good luck at the tables

Once again another horrible example by the children in the peanut gallery. When I lead in a poker game I want to play more hands so the blinds come to the short stacks sooner rather than later. More blinds seen more likely to get busted. If the shortys double up they are shrinking someone elses stack and making them more likely to get busted.

Man. for a hound u r pretty smart (I like hounds, but not the smartest dogs IMHO). You are right on here. The sports analogy to running out the clock I hope appeals to the jock competitors here; as for the first example (which I failed to elaborate on) you are exactly right. In the 70 FPP buyin satellites for example, at stars, you either win an $11 ticket or nothing, so playing slow can sometimes be an effective tool.
I think all these peeps talking about 'honour' and 'dignity' are wasting a lot of good poker playing time. We are here to win. The sites gave us a clock to use. So use it at your discretion, it is your prerogative.
Most of the morally superior arguments are laughable here, they do not belong in a game of skill, strategy, and ruthlesness. Amen.
BTW GS before you start with the 'children' or 'kids' jibes here, I am 54. Go figure. Can call me an old fool if it makes u feel better (superior). I'm only a 'mediocre' winner I admit, but I win.

;-) no problem.

I only said that because you were being a bit condescending.

gl at the tables