| This is a discussion on Small Ball / Bubble within the online poker forums, in the Tournament Poker section; As a novice in tournaments (especially rebuys) I find the small ball approach Negreanu advocates to be difficult as you get later on a tourney ... |
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#1 | ||||
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| Small Ball / Bubble As a novice in tournaments (especially rebuys) I find the small ball approach Negreanu advocates to be difficult as you get later on a tourney (post bubble lets say). Seems like everybody just shoves at that point but of course I am playing mostly $5 and under tourneys. The strategy I tend to employ more closely resembles in certain respects the "Kill Phil" theory of avoiding difficult post-flop decisions, -- Quote from book-- thereby giving novice players a means "to neutralize the edge enjoyed by more experienced opponents." Does anybody who uses small ball have starting hand guidelines and advice about bet-sizing when raising before the flop post bubble (lets just assume your stack is in the middle of the remaining players and your table is generally passive but the chip leader is to your left). Also assume that you have about 25x the BB as a starting stack and your goal is not to move up in the $ but to win the whole thing? |
| Play Texas Hold'em Online Poker | Small Ball / Bubble | |
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#2 | ||||
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| If your goal is to win the tournament you´d want to avoid any coinflip situation so therefor I usually apply the push/fold strategy at this stage of a tournament instead of smallballing, which is a great strategy in low-limit MTT´s, but when the bigger money is approaching the nerves of many players fail them and therefor you should force them to call/fold-spots with marginal hands rather than fold/call/I-might-make him-fold-with-my-A2-if-i-go-allin spots. To describe more clearly what I mean let´s take the following example: Hand: 7-7 Seat: Cut-Off Situation: Folded to you Now with this hand at an early stage I would make it 3-4 BB´s and same goes for if I make it deep like final 3-5% of total players remaining, BUT if I have just made the money and people are playing like maniacs (as they usually do after the bubble burst) treating K-T as bullets then I would push in this spot rather than raising 3-4 BB´s just to face an allin from A-X. Hands I never raise in these situations are hands like KQ KJ QJ etc as if the any of the blinds or the button holds a raggy ace they will probably push and you dont wanna call down an all-in bet with just K high. Too make a long answer short at this stage dont raise anything that doesn´t has A-3 dominated and when you play it make sure that your opponent realize he cant push you out of the hand. |
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#3 | ||||
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| Great topic. If you are sure that you will only accept 1st place as success, then I guess I can understand what you are saying. If not, then you can really pick up a lot of places by hanging back until you have a premium hand. Especially right after the bubble bursts. The next couple of rounds will clean out quite a few players. I would rather advocate this approach unless you are one of the big stacks. Then you can devour some of the small stack maniacs while you are waiting for hands to challenge the other big boys. |
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#5 | ||||
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| re: Small Ball / Bubble poker A lot of people don't understand the conditions necessary to use the small ball strategy as Negreanu teaches it. Negreanu has admitted on his blog that he doesn't play online MTTs very often because he doesn't like the stucture. He primarily plays the big buy in deep stack tournaments where you can make moves like those in the small ball playbook. I have tried to adapt his small ball strategy to online MTTs a bit. Instead of raising 3-4x the BB with a hand like 89s, i just min raise if its folded to me in late position and see if i get a caller and flop a good draw or even a monster, and play from there. I have used this adapted strategy in the small buy in (<$10) tournaments on full tilt where you start with 1500 in chips and have consistently had about 3500-4000 chips by the end of the first break if I am not busted already (which doesn't happen very often ) |
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#6 | ||||
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| I'll admit, i've always been to nervous to try a small ball approach, but maybe I'll see what I can do next time i get high in a mtt... However, I really like the concept of the strategy, being able to slowly put yourself out as a reckless post bubble donk, then pouncing when you hit dimes or cowboys or something. However, I always get nervous and just want to cash as high as I can, so I am generally one of the players sitting back and watchin the all-ins drop. |
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#7 | ||||
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| I can definitely agree on the small ball approach early on in a tourney for the simple fact that in the early stages there's quite a bit of reckless play and not having a large amount of chips committed to the pot makes it that much easier to get away from a hand. In the latter stages though when the blinds and antes get large, it's better to win by everyone folding rather than betting small and letting people see the flop. Usually when the antes kick in if you just min raise preflop you are giving the BB proper odds to call with any two. Another thing to consider about the small ball approach is that you want to see a lot of flops. this could hurt you later on when the blinds get large for blind steal attempts. When I'm playing a MTT I'll usually try and collect as much of the dead money's chips as possible but still try and keep a rock image so in later stages when the blinds become large and worth stealing, I'll have a more credible table image to be able to do so. |
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#8 | ||||
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Basically, imo, it all comes down is stack sizes . . . if you have an M of 10 or less, min-raising should be out of the question (unless maybe you're planning on inducing a raise and re-shoving), and any hand you play should be good enough to go AIPF; and with an M of 5 or less, your only options should be to shove or fold, anyway. BUT, if you should be lucky enough to get to the money or the FT with a large stack (M=20+), "small-ball" moves can still be very effective, as long as you're using position and are aware of the other players' stack sizes and their playing styles. I.e.: if you min-raise into 3 short-stacks that will certainly either shove or fold, you might as well just raise enough to put them all in - if that's what you're trying to do - rather than min-raise and give them a chance to re-raise you . . . but if you have other large stacks behind you, a min-raise may be a better option to build up a pot and actually get some post-flop play. Note: Once again, antes can make a big difference in the effect of a min-raise, as anyone behind you will have drastically different odds to call depending on whether or not there are antes, and on how large they are compared to the blinds. |
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#10 | ||||
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| re: Small Ball / Bubble poker There are no starting hands requirements for small ball. I don't like using small ball because you get into really difficult decisions FREQENTLY. Hitting 2nd, 3rd pair on a regular basis then trying to figure out if the person who just made a pot size bet actually has something. In a tournament I stick to long ball because as many have stated, towards the middle late it becomes a shoving match. If you put in a small raise, someone is going to shove.....now what? This is common. In cash, that's a different story. I play every hand. 7 out of 10 is playing solid. Deep stacked with no escalating blinds.....yeah I'll play the 3-7 suited and 10-8's and the 3-5's any face card, etc. Does anyone know who plays small ball in MTT's? I would like to rail that person through a tournament and see how it's done. |
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#11 | ||||
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| This really depends. Like you said with the Kill Phil strategy, it is used by novices. It's fine if you're willing to let luck guide you, but if you feel you're an experienced player, you don't need to do this. The point of the Kill Phil strategy is that it shields weakness post flop. If you don't want to use this it's pretty simple: become a better post flop player. Now, as to how to play small ball later on: Be observant of the table. Don't try a 2.5 BB raise with 87s into blinds that have 10 BBs left. Use raises like that if the blinds are deep stacked or very passive. Also, don't be afraid to stray from strategy a little bit. Every successful pro, regardless of strategy, switches gears at some point over the course of a long tournament. Steal every now and then with a slightly bigger raise, slow play occasionally. You need to keep your opponents on their toes regardless of where you are in the tournament. |
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#12 | ||||
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| Small Ball... & Bubble... Although I am new to cash poker I have learned a lot from free play. I have learned that no monetary value to bets tends to people playing rags ( weak or hands not worthy of betting on. ) And low and behold some one always pulls off the miraculous hand. This also applies to some freerolls. I would call this amateur hour but I see it more and more in cash games as I play farther I hold on to my relevant or strong starter hands and when it comes show down time I see the rags fall out of the wood work... So Im I missing some thing here or doing the right thing using strategy??? I know that mathamatics are relevant to poker but these Left Field Hands are winning nearly as frequently as any other.... Oh yeah I have for the most part been using small ball strategy... Regards Philo Betto420 aka Chan Sparks |
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#13 | ||||
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| Quote:
Quote:
I think I usually follow the small-ball strategy in MTTs somewhat successfully (at least as long as I have chips), so you're welcome to rail me anytime. Quote:
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#14 | ||||
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| I just started using smallball and I like it. I think the key or keys are stacks/blinds, knowing your table and position. 1) Yes if your stack is really low you can't play it too well, I'll play it up to ten BB's. But I do find it tough to play in turbos I find it better to play tight early and then smallball if you are lucky enough to have a stack. 2) It's all about fishing and playing your great hands the same as your small pairs and suited connectors. The other players have to be paying attention to the hands you showdown for this to work. And you need to really sit back and watch how they play before you jump in with 76o or 33. 3) And as always having position is ALWAYS the best. |
Number of Posts: 14
Number of Authors: 13