Shoving with pocket 4s in MP

So we are at the final table. Top 6 gets paid. First hand with 9 players left. I had stack of 9bb. Three players were shorter than me.
UTG limps(loose player) , I am in MP, UTG+2. I have pocket 4s. Button calls with 3 BB. Small blinds re shoves with AK.

Flop gives 9 10 J(rainbow) turn Q river was a 9.

What do you think? Should I have not shoved with 4 in MP?

If you are about to get in money by just folding you can do that i don't play small pocket pairs if i am lo in chips but i seen a lot of people getting double up with 33, 44 kind of hands so its not a bad play if cards hold up.

I like it better in late position than middle but with just 9BB left you can make an argument to make a move here. I would probably put this closer to a fold because of the limper, if it was folded to you without any limper it would probably be a better situation to push. Would be able to give better advice if you provided a lot more info (other stack sizes, size of the blinds, etc).

It depends on your priority and what you feel the general table dynamics are.

Personally, if I wanted to win, I probably would have shoved - the majority of the time you will get all folds or be in a race, and it is better to be in a race while you still have a decent chip stack.

However, if your priority is to last as long as you can and cash more-so than to win, then folding can be better here in order to ensure an extra couple of places and make sure you never go out with less equity unless the blinds take you.

But yeah, objectively speaking I don't see much wrong with pushing or folding. Subjectively speaking, if your gut tells you it may have been wrong pushing here, just fold a similar situation next time and see how that goes.

If in doubt, tight is right.

dont think i am a fan of the shove with 44, would have to wiz it but think 99 or aqo plus

just think with 3 players below you can afford to wait for a better spot

Id most likely wait for a better spot,
you have enough hands still coming to get better cards and/or position
but...


also more info on stacks, players and everything would help more too

I would def wait for a better spot. Every player plays differently and has better luck. small pairs in MP usually never wourk out for me so I would of waited for a better spot to shove my 9bbs

Whilst I almost exclusively play to win first; I think 44 is too light of a range here. Villain first one that is could easily not know how to play a bigger hand UTG, and with the large number of players left to act behind you I think you can find better spots even with your light BBs.

nothing wrong in the play there... is a fold or push situation.. if you get heads up with someone and the pair holds you would be good to win the tourney, so it was worth the shot

Its the "The Gordon Pair Principle:' Chance of a higher pocket behind you=
No. of players left * No. of higher pockets/2

If 5 players are left to act, then 5*9 (# of higher pockets)/2 = 23% of the time you are WAY BEHIND 20/80 the rest of the time its a coin flip. Not good.

Then it depends on stack sizes. Can those 5 players fold? IMHO, you need to be on the button for +EV.

I think you'll have better places to take a shot.

So three stacks were shorter than me and 5 were bigger but one guys had 30bb. Rest were about 20bb ish. I definitely think I could wait in last position to shove with CO or the button. Picked a better spot too.

I have 69k. The blinds were 4k/8k and was about to be 5k/10k

The only thing was also that the blinds were about to go up in 1 min and I would have 7bb. Also the blinds goes up at 20 min so I have to make moves fast as possible.

Your shove has no fold equity...or something like that. Basically, you're not getting the "limper" to fold.

I would have folded and waited for a spot where I can be the first to open shove if considering playing a hand OOP.

I think your shove was a mistake. I would definitely wait for better chance. I prefer folding the majority of hands from ep and mp on final table. Just wait for better cards next time

A similar thing happened to me, there were a couple of limpers, I was in the hijack with around 15BB's, I think and I decided to steal the pot with pocket 5s and maybe find some hero who would call me with an A-rag or a smaller PP. Action folded to BB who reshoves and flips over JJ. Only difference though, I was nowhere near ITM.

Shoving like that would be acceptable in the button and encouraged if you're in the BB and the pot is unraised, but in MP, no.

I would prefer atleast 77+/AJ+ before begin to shove with the current stack in MP against 7 to 9 player..

There is limper and another one shoves.

Auto fold. Let them knock each other out.

yeah, wait it bubble time, and you got action before you, shove /fold time pre man

I think this is a great hand to review. It is actually quite a borderline decision based on many factors.

First of all, you must realize that whenever you make this play you are HOPING to flip and double up. so you must be comfortable with the idea of getting called. If you are just trying to win the blinds this is not a good spot because of the UTG limper.

Secondly, I think we would all agree that had it folded to you in MP with 9bbs and pockets 4s you should definitely jam.

Thirdly, I think we would all agree that if you were faced with an early position raise you should definitely fold right here as you have no fold equity and are usually flipping and often crushed.

So it is precisely the presence of an early position LIMPER that makes this hand interesting.

so, as somebody else eluded to, I think my goals for the tourney would influcence my decision here a lot. But even if your goal is to fold your way to a min cash, you're still 3 players away so folding right here still might not be enough to get you in the money.

I think it's close but I'm often jamming right here. In fact, I did something similar with 33 at the final table a few weeks back when 8 remained and 6 were paid. UTG limps with J9s and I jam in the HJ with 33 and he tank calls and I doubled up. risks cannot be avoided and you're slightly ahead of most limping hands.