Regarding a hand that absolutely has me in shock!

The game is a $100 NL hold ‘em tournament game with two $100 rebuys each for 10K chips. If you activate the rebuys before the first hand you get a 10K bonus – so I started with 40K as I do every Sunday at my local card room.

The tournament was going really well – I’m a very tight and patient player and it payed off on this day. I was getting cards like crazy and had increased my stack to 150K within the first 2.5 hours and after winning several all-in pots.

I got moved to a table with several local professionals that I play all the time. I’m not a professional and enjoy my day job – nonetheless, these guys know me and I know them. One player in particular has recently come into the scene and while he has some skills, I feel he is too loose and for lack of a better term, an idiot. He ends up winning the hand I am about to describe and as a result has my head so tied up I’ve been having virtual nightmares for a week now!

The blinds are 3K and 6K with no ante. I’m UTG +1 and find 5c 5s. The UTG player (very tight and predicable) raises to 13K – an extremely weak and nearly transparent bet, I thought he had AK immediately and as it turns out, I was right. I smooth call with my fives, and the cutoff moves all-in for 35K and change.

The player that I described above smooth calls the all-in from the button and so does the AK from UTG. I see this all the time online and even in some lower limit live games – but this is one of the biggest games in Colorado and it typically attracts better players. I’m thinking "not in my casino are you going to smooth call an all-in from the button with two players to act behind you, one of whom raised from UTG and the other who smooth called from UTG +1."

However, let’s take some time to explain my thought process here. I’m nearly positive of the AK from UTG and what did the cutoff push with – a big ace almost certainly. The button calls with what has to be a pocket pair right? In fact I said in my head 77. So I’m salivating over this pot, there is 127-130K in the pot and I have two big aces stealing each other’s outs. I started with hand with around 150K, so this is maybe the most attractive pot I have seen in a number of weeks. If only I can get the 77 to fold because I’m nearly certain I can get the AK to fold; so I push all-in!

I’m instantly called from the button and the AK mucks showing AK. The cutoff seat shows AJ and as it turns out the button had 66 and took 140K of my 150K stack and a huge pot when no Ace, Jack, or Five fell; WTF? Did I just get schooled by this guy, or is he just an fning idiot? That is the question that has my head all tied up in knots and I can’t quite figure it out. I know which way I’m leaning (idiot) – but’s that’s also a tendency I’m trying to avoid and would like another educated opinion.

Any thoughts?

Josh

A couple of observations:

1) You said he was loose. So you probably don't have as much fold equity as you think.
2) I have seen this play often with big pairs to try and trick the big stack into the pot. So, even though he had a mid pair, your assessment of his range is too narrow.
3) What do you think he thought you had to make this play? If he puts you on AK he has the right price. If you have a pair like you did he has you crushed. Maybe the flat call pre was a clue to the fact that you don't have a big pair. If he knows you well and you never flat call an UTG raise with big pairs, then he can narrow your range.
3) How many players entered? How many were left? Is the structure fast? Are you close to the money? All of these factors make some players say, what the hell, let's gamble.

That being said, I like your play. If you just call the bet preflop then you play the hand oop and if he is willing to cbet and you dont flop a set you fold and lose 35k. He made a loose, but good call on you. I don't think he is an idiot. That brings me to another point. What is it with poker players thinking they are so great and everyone else is so stupid? I have made great plays and stupid plays. In poker, it seems that many times stupid gets rewarded and smart gets crushed. It's not a perfect game.

I am imagining the maniac you are talking about posting on a poker forum about the donk who stacked off into a 4 way pot with 55 and how smart he was to pick off the obvious squeeze play.

No offense

fold pre (w/o knowin' stack sizes.. > 'fold pre')

Sounds like you were playing sheriff, and your the one that got shot. If you know the kind of player he is, why take such a risk with only a pair of 5s? You were up against a loose player, you set out to teach him a lesson and it backfired. Honestly, I cant see any reason to play such a big pot with someone like this. Bide your time and punish him when you have a solid hand..not a pair of fives. Gotta put your desire to win way ahead of your desire to show this guy who is boss.

An opponent not playing a hand the way you would, the way you think he should or the way you'd like him to doesn't make him an idiot. You chose a line that didn't work out. And even if he is actually an idiot, does that make your read and play better or worse?

fold pre

don't play low pp's in EP with 25 bb's

Fold to the original raise and it's not even close

/thread

There are two lines of thought, Smooth call and see the flop as your stack can take a hit to a extent. If you miss the flop and the guy c bets, you have to fold.Or plan b, just fold and pick a better spot.I think I would play the player to a certain extent.You have to know his hand range in order to figure on what his holdings may be. Is he lag or tag. or passive check caller. All theses factors have to come into play. I think your PRIDE got in the way of rational thought processes into your concideration concerning this hand. Learn from it and get passed it. Good luck on your next attempt. sub-note from your comments. You stated that you has shoved all in several times with success. Remember ,it works every time but the last time. so why shove . PLAY the HAND but make em PAY to see the cards. Here`s another thing too. You said you put him on a bigger pocket pair than yours{77} unquote, so if thats the case just fold as your beat anyway.

yes, there are two lines of thought. one, which involves calling with 55, is horrible. the one that involves folding is good.

I changed my mind, we shouldn't end thread. Should be entertaining and highly instructive on why tournament play is so profitable even for mediocre players who don't know how to play past the flop.

OP, putting people on a single hand is really fishy. The truth is you probably made several other colossal errors in other hands and got away with it and you're just being results oriented.

The guy who played this the worst is probably the one who folded AK, tough call though.

Lest I be accused of just being snarky and dismissive, I'll add some possibly constructive thoughts:

1. the 25-30 BB range when most people are shorter is a really tough stack size to play. Up to 20 or so BBs you're most just looking for good spots to gamble/flip, steal from late position and resteal from the blinds vs. late-position openers. at 25+ BBs you probably have slightly too much equity to just stick it in because you don't gain extra fold equity 95% of the time, but if they have you covered they get to freeroll the extra 5 BBs.

2. The range that you cold call here at UTG+1 is ... uh, nothing. I can't really think of a single hand. Your range should probably be something like 99/TT+/AQ+ or more like TT+/AK and just raise-call or raise-fold all of it, or fold. Maybe if the table were really tight in 3-bet pots or really squeezy and you have AA, cold-calling could be best.

3. I'll spare you the math but the odds we need on UTG's stack to set mine here is roughly 20-1. Even if he open-limped and you know he has a huge hand, you should fold because we're barely getting set-mining odds and the chances of having a raise/shove behind you is really high.

4. Don't be surprised/shocked when you lose a ginormous pot with a crap hand, you'll lose plenty of big ones with great hands, too.

5. in before "I don't like gambling with AK when you're flipping at best."

couple other notes on hand described:

1. Not sure why 13K UTG is a weak and transparent bet, it should be standard among your "local pros." I don't know his stack size but I'd probably go 14K.
2. I'd expect a good player to flat on BTN with KK+ only.
3. Gambling in a huge pot is good. Gambling multiway with 55 is not. Trying to push out a loose player who's already invested is bad.

+4


-

Yea the maniacs are quite annoying, sorry dude

Look, I see what most of you are saying, and yes I knew I was beat pre-flop, I even told myself that he had 77. However, a loose player, by my definition, does not included the ability to call all his chips off in a 4 way pot with less than 77 – if I thought he was capable of calling there I would have never made the squeeze.

The 13K from UTG was from a regular who is not very good. I have a long history with him and frankly, he might as well turn the cards face up – I knew he had AK, so calling pre-flop to take a flop with 55 is not a bad play even after considering the size of my stack; since I know his hand I’m no longer set hunting, just no AK hunting. Plus the cutoff that pushed all-in had been folding for the last 90 minutes and didn’t seem to have any understanding of his stack in relation to the blinds, or for that matter, position, case in point he pushed into an UTG raise and UTG+1 call with Ad Jd (but…but…they were suited) – obviously there was a risk of the all-in, but at that time it could have gone either way.

I think the worst part of that hand is the buttons’ smooth call with 66 – he might as well have turned them up, yeah I thought he had 77 but I wasn’t afraid of a big hand because he would have 4 bet in that case – remember I know this guy pretty well too. I REALLY THOUGHT I COULD GET HIM TO FOLD!

If you want to call me a donkey fine, but a double up by getting my pocket pair up against a weak players desperation all-in is what I was going for here; I don’t think it was a bad play at all – definitely aggressive and not necessary with my stack, but after I got involved, way too attractive to get away from; how does the button know that I don’t have a big pair? Just for grins let’s take a hypothetical and imagine that the button ran the squeeze and pushed all-in after the desperation all-in, and the AK from UTG folded; what do I do? Fold every day and twice on Tuesdays even if I think there is a reasonable chance the button has 44.

I said something to him after the hand was over as well and he got defensive and said “I was getting short stacked” – just to reiterate, he had over 20 big blinds – which again I think proves my point – idiot that couldn’t fold despite almost certainly thinking he was behind, if he was thinking at all!

We were down to the final 20+ players, I think 7 got paid maybe 8, I’m not sure and we had been playing for 6 hours at this point. This is one of the better structures but it’s still kind of a turbo, but if you invest the money you are really deep stacked with 400 BB to start. There are 30 minute levels with constantly doubling blinds, but they do throw in a couple of mediocre levels every so often, like instead of going from 1K 2K to 2K 4K there is a 1.5K 3K level. My stack was amongst the chips leaders, though there was one monster stack at another table by a guy I’ve never seen before so I’m sure it was good play that got him that stack, LOL. If I had it to do over again, as confident as I was about all of my opponents holdings, I would have just called pre-flop and shoved after the flop, but in this particular hand I would have lost since a King fell on the flop. In actuality the AK folded but by smooth calling he doesn’t, obviously, and I think that’s why I felt the squeeze not only would work, but was my only chance to win the pot!

I’ve been beat before and I can take it – I didn’t go Hellmuth on the guy – though I wonder what he would have said. I just don’t understand the play, in the best case scenario he had to think he was taking 66 into a four way pot against 6 over cards. But again, I have to wonder if he was even thinking!

Josh

It's not about what he's thinking, you can't control his actions or his thoughts. It's about your play, and your call with 55 is absolutely horrible and putting someone on a single hand is absolutely horrible.

Focusing on someone else's play is a HUGE leak in your game, but you obviously have a lot of others to work out first, including basic preflop play.

The shove is marginal to fairly baddish but the pot is big and you have SOME fold equity but probably not much. 20 big blinds is not a big stack by any stretch of the imagination, what the original blinds are has no bearing on the hand in question. The fact that you're in the final 20 doesn't make a damn bit of difference, and neither does how long you've been playing.

But the decision to be involved in the hand from the start is ridiculously bad.

+1 on the fold pre

You have to consider what he thinks of you and the utg player. How many chips does UTG have, didn't mention it, kind of important. What kind of hands would you just call13k to a nit and ship it after two flat calls to cut-offs allin. Button can at least assume your hand is one you weren't trying to protect in the first place after you just called a marginal raise. UTG must of had some decent fold equity if your willing to go over the top with 55. The call with 66 was bad with UTG still to act but at this point your looking more like you have AK. You are still a coin flip at best to any of these players and good chance you are already dominated.

Buadib1 -

How can you possibly say that putting an opponent on a single hand is not a good play when I was dead nuts right? I said the button had 77, he had 66, I said UTG had AK, he had AK, I said the cutoff had a big ace, he had A J - you’re right the goal of the game is to put your opponents range because isolating a single hand is nearly impossible – unless you know and were proven right!

This isn’t online poker and I guess I can see why you play at Full Tilt, which explains a great deal. Are you actually telling me that he made a good play, calling off all his chips, with 66 from the button? Keep playing at FTP!

And yes I’ve heard the well know and publicized quote “a fish sees the holes in everyone game but his own”. Obviously I understand the meaning of the quote far better than you! Even if I have a gaping hole in my game, which I probably do, this player was not sophisticated enough to realize it, or able to ascertain that 66 was actually ahead; I guess it’s a good thing I didn’t have 88 because I would have played it the exact same way!

Buster999 –

The UTG player had about 110K, so he was in the same position as me – if it were me UTG I would have pushed with AK, but’s he was and is a NIT and wasn’t thinking about anything other than his hand the dream flop with an Ace or King. He actually would have won the hand if he had played!

I don’t think AK is a legitimate hand to put me on there, I would have pushed or 3 bet long before it got so out of hand. The all-in was designed to make the button and the UTG player fold, isolating my pocket pair against a big ace for 127k in the main pot with a 35K investment; it didn’t work – but it really should have!

Josh

If button Didn't call, I'd bet the UTG would have called and you still would have been a %52 favorite for about 75% of your stack. It was a dum call with 66 from the button. It would have been worth the risk if you were up against UTG to gain another 180k in chips, but when button calls 35k there is still a good chance he will call a shove and possibly a 4 way pot where 55 doesn't do well against 3 other hands, 2 of them which will risk your tournament life. I would have folded 55 pre becuase, you were approaching the bubble and almost all other situations like this.

LOL

You're risking 13K to win 110K max, and worse, you have him pretty squarely on overcards and he's a nit so he's not going to stack off unimproved if you hit. So really you're risking 13K to win 22K + a possible cbet (assuming you are going to shove over a bet on a non-A, non-K, non-QJT board).

Worse, there are 7 people to act so there's a high likelihood you don't even get to see a flop so you just lit 13K on fire.

So what was the plan if you call and 2 other people call and UTG misses his AK but you don't have a set?

If you are so certain that he only has AK, then shove all-in preflop yourself. Almost anything is better than cold calling in that spot.

Conversely the BTN is getting great odds (92K to win ~220 K) so pretty much a no-brainer after his dumb original call, especially since your line is ridiculously weak.

OP I think it's time to quit your day job. With sick readz like that you're obviously ready to go pro.

Daniel Negreanu and his sick reads ITT obv

Everyone's said it above, this is a routine fold preflop given the short stacks and your lousy position.

Serious question, what were you trying to represent with this line?

And if he Thinks of you the same as what you think of him, the this happends both of you set read of the opponet to small PP. So you were both right but you just happend to have the smallest PP, in this case.

i wish i had pp 5s, thats the best starting hand in Ep EVER!. . . but i digress. . . .
smooth call fine, i wouldn't have but w/e. . . then to a raise its an insta fold imho . . . .OP do u want advice or do you just want to vent? If you you do not want true critique why bother posting this as a question?

I realize it was kind of a transparent squeeze that I probably should have just stayed away from. I’m not sure what I was doing even playing that hand from early position, but for some reason, I did. If I had got called by the UTG player with whatever he was holding I would just have to chalk it up to experience. The thing that has my head all tied up is how the button made that play. First smooth calling a re-raise all-in and then calling off 100% of his stack into what could potentially be a 4 way pot – yeah he had the best hand but couldn’t have possibly known that, and that’s is why I think it was bad play, most likely I would have lost the hand anyway, in hind site of course.

why not? you instantly read every single person's hands based on simple preflop actions, he probably just has soul reading skills like you do. when 2 wizards do battle, things get wizardy

+8
also fold pre.
also just because you guessed AK doesn't mean you knew he had AK.

In after live version of potripper

Lol what a brilliant read this thread is. Wish I could just put someone on an exact hand and forget all about trying to determine their range.

I didn’t say I’m clairvoyant and could have easily been wrong. As it turns out, I did pretty well on this hand! I could have been up against AA from the rock that was UTG, so again why was I even playing? Point taken! But after the buttons’ smooth call of the all-in re-raise I was nearly certain of a pocket pair and I was right – I really don’t think that was too hard of a read and most poker players would have came to the same conclusion, what else could he be playing there? It’s either a small pocket or a monster, there is no in between. If I were him I may think the same thing about my hand, accept that I don’t believe I gave away quite as much info, I could have been smooth calling with AQ or 78 suited or something like that vice the nearly certain poker pair he was playing, and of course like he, I could have been slow rolling a monster as well.

My point is kind of irrelevant because I don’t think he was even thinking about my cards and was just going to play his 66 no matter what into an UTG raise, a re-raise all-in, and a re-re-raise all-in; because he was “short stacked” as he put it. Even still I would have almost certainly been called by the UTG player and lost to a pair of kings. Originally I thought he would fold but after re-thinking it I’m not so sure, hell he almost called anyway, and I just should have avoided this whole spot no matter how attractive the pot may have been.

You have almost no big pairs in your range after flatting shortstack UTG+1.

Range? People don't have ranges. They have 1 hand.

Do I see WVHBilly before my eyes in the "tournament" section on CC?

Hmmzz..

Surely not polishing up on your skillz for the cake promotion tournaments are we Billy and getting tips?:}

Ok, so if you’re on the button and I flat from UTG +1, short stacked as you say (even though 150K was one of the biggest in the tourney) and therefore have no big pairs in my range; you would call all-in with 66?

Regardless of how he got to this point, he should call with any hand that he called the 35K with. He should call with 66, he should call with 65. The fact that you can show up with a smaller pair from time to time makes it a super fist-pump call with 66.

He needs about 30% equity to call and, even giving you some discounted JJ-AA, he easily has 40%. It would be a terrible fold for the price.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.791% 41.87% 00.92% 344148096 7553733.00 { 66 }
Hand 1: 57.209% 56.29% 00.92% 462650358 7553733.00 { AcAd, KcKd, QcQd, JcJd, JcJh, TT-55, ATs+, KQs, AQo-AJo }