Pre-flop logic?

mycophile · Aug 22, 2014

Two interesting (maybe not *that* interesting) situations happened over the past 2 days, just want to hear some thoughts on them.

Yesterday I was in a tournament, couldn't have been any deeper than 5 hands in. I pick up pocket kings UTG+1, early position. I rarely ever, ever shove pre-flop with anything, even aces. And even then, I hate to call all-ins with them. But this time I shoved with my pocket kings, and the person at the cutoff called with AJ off suit (we were about even stacked)- all was well until they hit the ace on the river. Obviously the river always hurts the worse.

And today I was in another, probably 15ish hands in. I was UTG+3 this time, picked up AQ off suit. I decide to shove, as much as I hate to pre-flop, guy (3 spots behind) calls with 3 4 suited, and ended up hitting two pair. He had about double my stack, but can anyone explain the logic there? Was that just a donk move? Or am I making the wrong moves here?

(I realize there's not a single correct way to play any hand in any situation, just looking for feedback)

Mordecoke · Aug 22, 2014

I think it depends how much chips you had and what the blinds were, or in other words how many bb's did you have with the pocket kings? In my opinion, you should have just raised with pocket kings in early position. Why?...because if you shove nobody's going to believe you have that much of a strong hand. Shoving in early position makes it look like you have a low pocket pair or something like pocket 7's. You are more likely to get called with hands like Aj or A10 or something of that sort. Plus you make it easier for a person to just call the all in. I hope this makes sense.

With the AQ I think it's fine to shove there depending on how many bb's you had. The guy with 34 suited is the donk. I wouldn't worry about that one too much.

Raibik13 · Aug 22, 2014

I think i agree. It depends what's was the blind level and how much stack you had. The guy who called you with 34 must be a donk. Are you playing free roll?

revskip · Aug 22, 2014

With the kings that early I want to see a flop before I get chips in the middle so I would usually make my standard raise and then look for pot control on the flop if it doesn't come with the A. If they play back then you have a decision to make whether or not you believe they caught a set or two pair but at least you leave yourself room to get away if you think you are beat (which in the micro stakes is usually not the case).

The second hand is just one of those freak hands that a terrible player gets lucky on. Again though because it is so early why not just make a standard or slightly larger than standard raise and see a flop. If the board comes dry with no help you can still continuation bet and win a fair amount of cheap pots and if they play back you can fold and get away with chips.

Outside of double or nothing sit and goes I rarely like to push early with premium hands because it makes your opponents plays easier. A lot of players find it easier to call or shove pre-flop because they aren't very sure of their ability to read the board so it simplifies their decision making. And some really terrible players can occasionally do it with hands as weak as 34 and get lucky on you. Better to be able to get away from a big hand early with a small loss and stay alive in the tournament for a better spot.

Late in tournaments when the M gets real low is a completely different story, but early I'd rather see flops and be able to make decisions based on the bets and size the pot so my decisions are easier.

BigSlickBaby · Aug 22, 2014

revskip said:
With the kings that early I want to see a flop before I get chips in the middle so I would usually make my standard raise and then look for pot control on the flop if it doesn't come with the A. If they play back then you have a decision to make whether or not you believe they caught a set or two pair but at least you leave yourself room to get away if you think you are beat (which in the micro stakes is usually not the case).

The second hand is just one of those freak hands that a terrible player gets lucky on. Again though because it is so early why not just make a standard or slightly larger than standard raise and see a flop. If the board comes dry with no help you can still continuation bet and win a fair amount of cheap pots and if they play back you can fold and get away with chips.

Outside of double or nothing sit and goes I rarely like to push early with premium hands because it makes your opponents plays easier. A lot of players find it easier to call or shove pre-flop because they aren't very sure of their ability to read the board so it simplifies their decision making. And some really terrible players can occasionally do it with hands as weak as 34 and get lucky on you. Better to be able to get away from a big hand early with a small loss and stay alive in the tournament for a better spot.

Late in tournaments when the M gets real low is a completely different story, but early I'd rather see flops and be able to make decisions based on the bets and size the pot so my decisions are easier.

You bring up a really good point there about forcing post flop play early in the tournament. I've gotten to the final table on several tournaments here this week just by slowly stockpiling chips early by getting these guys to play cheap, fast, post flop play. If I do happen to catch the nuts, I trap them and then shove. Typically I wind up in the middle game in the top 5-10 and can then start looking for situations to make bigger post flop bets and/or shove for value.

mycophile · Aug 26, 2014

BigSlickBaby said:
You bring up a really good point there about forcing post flop play early in the tournament. I've gotten to the final table on several tournaments here this week just by slowly stockpiling chips early by getting these guys to play cheap, fast, post flop play. If I do happen to catch the nuts, I trap them and then shove. Typically I wind up in the middle game in the top 5-10 and can then start looking for situations to make bigger post flop bets and/or shove for value.

Even though it's an essential part of any poker player's arsenal, I really hate trapping/slow playing. I generally play the same way, slowly build it up and let everyone else take eachother out. I like to shove when I've got it just to disallow anyone to draw out on me. Have gotten shafted by some pretty ridiculous suckouts though- I'm sure everyone has.

revskip · Aug 26, 2014

mycophile said:
Even though it's an essential part of any poker player's arsenal, I really hate trapping/slow playing. I generally play the same way, slowly build it up and let everyone else take eachother out. I like to shove when I've got it just to disallow anyone to draw out on me. Have gotten shafted by some pretty ridiculous suckouts though- I'm sure everyone has.

I used to play this way but I've found in MTTs if you play to stop all draws from happening you don't win enough big pots and end up in a lot of coin flip situations.

Sometimes it is better to let someone draw with poor odds than to blow them off the hand especially if you have re-draw in your hand (two pair hands that can boat, trips that can pair the board or hit quads).

BigSlickBaby · Aug 27, 2014

revskip said:
I used to play this way but I've found in MTTs if you play to stop all draws from happening you don't win enough big pots and end up in a lot of coin flip situations.

I've experienced the exact same thing you're talking about a few times lately when I flopped a set on a wet board that got wetter on the turn. I could have called another street before hitting the gas but I shoved, still won a nice pot, but I think I could have stacked him.

Of course, later on I played it right and did stack a fish with a set on a wet board but ...what you're saying is very true.

GWU73 · Aug 29, 2014

It's called a Donkament for a reason.

Jacki Burkhart · Aug 31, 2014

you asked about the logic of these preflop plays? Well, I think the logic is pretty weak, but I think it goes something like this:

"I want to play for first. I want to build a big stack early or bust out and move on to the next MTT. I don't want to grind an average stack for hours and hours just to take a flip near the bubble and bust out. If I'm gonna bust out, I want it over with as soon as possible. most hands have at least 30-40% equity preflop. that is good enough for me. I'm gonna jam and if they fold great, and if they call, maybe I'll double up!"

If they bust out they move onto the next MTT and apply the same impatient strategy. These players are really the bread and butter of serious MTT players and so we must love them and tolerate the variance they bring to the game because overall, they lose more chips than they win by applying this "chip up or go home" plan....

hffjd2000 · Aug 31, 2014

No regrets.

We are ahead preflop on both situations.

Mordecoke · Aug 31, 2014

missjacki said:
you asked about the logic of these preflop plays? Well, I think the logic is pretty weak, but I think it goes something like this:

"I want to play for first. I want to build a big stack early or bust out and move on to the next MTT. I don't want to grind an average stack for hours and hours just to take a flip near the bubble and bust out. If I'm gonna bust out, I want it over with as soon as possible. most hands have at least 30-40% equity preflop. that is good enough for me. I'm gonna jam and if they fold great, and if they call, maybe I'll double up!"

If they bust out they move onto the next MTT and apply the same impatient strategy. These players are really the bread and butter of serious MTT players and so we must love them and tolerate the variance they bring to the game because overall, they lose more chips than they win by applying this "chip up or go home" plan....

Your insight is spot on! exactly what a MTT player should be thinking.
Get it in good and winning flips is how you win a tournament.
And when you get a big stack know how to use it!

TheBigFinn · Sep 1, 2014

Shoving with kings early depends on the tournament. At low levels you'll get bad calls, but at upper levels you wind up with the blinds. Standard raise is best, IMHO, for other reasons, It gives cover to your lesser hands. You have to have thinking players wondering if your AJs is a KK or AA.

The other hand is just a donk call, that sucked out.

RedCatPoker · Sep 20, 2014

hffjd2000 said:
No regrets.

We are ahead preflop on both situations.

Absolutely, probabilities of winning that hands were on your side, so in the long-term, you will eventually win. But, again, every table and every player should be treated in a special way.

It will be better to raise and see the flop. Pocket kings or aces force to play a biased game.

Poker Orifice · Oct 15, 2014

mycophile said:
Even though it's an essential part of any poker player's arsenal, I really hate trapping/slow playing. I generally play the same way, slowly build it up and let everyone else take eachother out. I like to shove when I've got it just to disallow anyone to draw out on me. Have gotten shafted by some pretty ridiculous suckouts though- I'm sure everyone has.

You might want to read up on an introductory strategy article >>> 'why we bet'.

Staneff · Oct 16, 2014

In the second situation: Whenever I see some1 who is like chip leader with over 2x 2nd in tournament in chips it's some1 who shoves with every suited connectors he has. When on one table you have 10x 2nd in chips you can play every single hand and bust suckers. Every low stack on this table is a target.

deluns28 · Oct 16, 2014

Just try to accumulate chips without risking all your stack. This can be done by well timed aggression using your position and reads.

romych007 · Oct 17, 2014

I believe that before the flop you need to put pressure on the players, as there is a likelihood that they will drop a garbage hands and collect an unexpected combination of Earnings

davem86 · Oct 17, 2014

romych007 said:
I believe that before the flop you need to put pressure on the players, as there is a likelihood that they will drop a garbage hands and collect an unexpected combination of Earnings

As if 10xbb is not enough J6s comes along

mycophile · Oct 20, 2014

Poker Orifice said:
You might want to read up on an introductory strategy article >>> 'why we bet'.

Link?

gqr31ff · Oct 21, 2014

There are different versions of the game first before the flop you can do to strengthen and raise your chances of winning and the second is with a great hand and wait kolirovat bluff rivals to collect chips

Pre-flop logic?

mycophile

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