Position with a difference

I played with a guy the other day who seemed to prefer UTG1 as prime positional spot.

MTT 9 handed.

UTG1 - 8/12 times he raised 3 x BB.

UTG2 - 7/12 times he raised 3 x BB.

From any other position, unless he could reraise (rarely)even to a limp, he would fold.

If there were no limpers or raisers in any position before him, 3 x BB.

His style of play was almost robotic, he just had to be the first to bet after the flop.

On the flop (every time) he would put enormous pressure on any that had called him, and continue to bet to the river.

The first 4 times he was called all the way to the river with his inevitable - put the guy allin river bet, he had proper hands and had connected big time(ironic isn't it).

He became very dangerous with a big stack, because if you took him on, you just knew he would put you allin on the river.

Luckily for me, first I hit pocket Aces, and let him hang himself with his 82o. Then I hit pocket Queens, connected trips, and let him hang himself with his A2o (bless him an Ace did come on the flop). Once other guys saw his hole cards, he came crashing down very quickly.

I think some of these guys watch too much poker on television, they get the wrong impression and believe that some of the pros bluff every hand!

I have just re-read this thread and maybe I didn't get the point I was trying to make over quite properly.

I don't use a poker tracker or any other tools, I don't have hand histories e-mailed (except on request), so I can only inform on what I have taken notes on.

The guy was not excessively loose considering it was a $1 MTT, he was just like most of us but in REVERSE.

I don't know for sure, but just guessing he only entered the pot maybe 6/36 in the 3 late positions.

Had he been excessively loose, I would have been taking him on much earlier, but lets face it when a guy is raising from UTG1 and UTG2 you tend to give them credit for a top 10% hand at least.

The two tightest players on the table when he was UTG1 - me BB and the SB guy, neither of us were taking him on. I am not a big defender of my blinds early in a tournament (different story later). This allowed him to be FIRST TO BET AFTER EACH FLOP.

My original post was not supposed to be about me taking him on (sorry, I got carried away), but more about the guys style of play.

I've seen this as well. I read a phrase on another forum "UTG has become the new button." That was actually a year or so ago but I've noticed it's seeped down to the micros (where I play), so I'm very concious of it.

Seems like every tournament I play there's at least one guy at my table trying this.

Very interesting, Brann6.

So this is a modern type of play, and a complete reverse of the teachings from the founding fathers of the game we love!

Playing on a passive table must be an absolute dream for players using this style. Surely though it should be used with an element of common sense, once exposed, surely it is time to take a different approach?

The guy I was talking about (after 1hr tournament chip leader of 2,000) carried on just the same no matter how many times he was exposed. We all bided our time waited for good starters, and if we hit we let him bet into us, call call call all the way (wham bam thankyou mam, mostly). He lost the lot in the next 1hr!

1) Brann's point is correct. There has been a recent shift of playing utg like it is the btn.

2) Maybe the best hands this player was getting was utg? I had this happen to me just yesterday during an mtt. For an hour & half at this table, I raised from utg nearly every orbit because this is when I would get QQ-AA, AK, etc;

3)Maybe he had nothing but lacking being challenged in any significant way or having anyone else drop the hammer on him he continued to do this because blinds & btn were not defending and it was easy chips. In other words: he found a way to exploit the blinds and btn and did it!

I have noticed this also - but i've also noticed that his chips are SOOO much sweeter, hehehe. Sometimes I don't even care if they are sliding to someone else at the table - just glad SOMEONE got him! Usually, in tourn play they are gone by the times the blinds get really high.

point 2 - I mentioned in the original post - The first 4 times he was called all the way to the river with his inevitable - put the guy allin river bet, he had proper hands and had connected big time(ironic isn't it). So yes it could be like yourself, he hit an extraordinary run of cards from UTG1 and UTG2.

Point 3 - Definately true, but the guy didn't know when to change gears, and this was his downfall.

Did you fare well in your MTT StormRaven?

Yeah, playing utg more often is a situational thing for me, I don't do it in cash play, in tournaments (especially nearing the bubble) I will steal the odd time utg, whereas people will generally steal from late position, with this in mind, you have just as good a chance of stealing the blinds as your raise looks strong, and you actually gain more information on the strength of your opponents hand than if you got a call from the blinds after raising from btn/co, as your opponents will have your early position raise in mind with their next action at such a crucial stage.

The same applies with calling raises with marginal hands in the small blind in a family pot, if someone has raised with at least 1 caller ahead of you, you can play for example your suited connectors in the small blind, check the flop out of position, but effectively be playing with position on the flop, often to take control of the pot from the small blind, either with a squeeze play on the flop, or opening on later streets depending how the hand develops and can throw your opponents off.

I only play cash games, but I really cant understand how you can play UTG like its the button.

UTG is always OOP, the button is always in position.

There are two key distictions between being in and out of position.

1. infomation (everyone know this one)
2. Pot size (the pot on average is bigger in position) therfore equity, especially shoving equity, is better on the button that UTG.

From the discription given of how the player played, it really sounds like he was a serial bluffer who got lucky a few times in a row.

I really dont think that people should be thinking that UTG is the new button, with one caveat. The power of position increases directly proportional to the efective stack size.

Therefore in SS situations (these are common in tournaments) position is not all that powerful. This isnt new stuff, but maybe its being used more than it was.

Certainly in a deepstack situation, UTG is not the new button, UTG is the worst position possible (other than the blinds)

The reference I read about "UTG being the new button" was in a tournament thread on another forum. I'm not an advocate of this style but it has it's place, at times, in tournament play.

1. UTG gets to act first and gets the first opportunity to steal the pot.
2. UTG bets get a lot of respect from halfway decent opponents, just don't do it as predictably as the guy in the example did.

I also play only cash games and I really do preffer to play from position, the amount of times I'll play UTG like it's the button is extremely limited. For a start, I have to be up against either a very timid opponent or one who's capable of folding a decent hand to an out of position show of strength. Once I'm up against one of those types of opponents, I'll play UTG like I would play on the button very sparingly and usually only when I'm got some indication that my opponent(s) is weak (i.e. flop missed his range or I picked up a tell).
The amount of times that I'll use UTG in that way are few and far between because acting first is a very risky thing, and the pay off for when it works aren't as good as they would be from position but acting first means you have the initiative and get a lot more respect than you would on the button. That is an advantage that can be used.

I, for one, would love to see positional results from PT from guys that have played like this for 100k hands or better. My wild-ass-guess is that it's not nearly as profitable or smart a strategy as some would think.

UTG raise to steal (table image is important here) and CBet (depending on flop) is a useful tool, but I wouldn't overuse it.

Lol This is all beginning to make since now. Been playing a lot of Micro cash tables. And there seems to be one idoit was keeps Raising UTG and UTG + 1.

Mmmmmmm.....

Just does not seems to be a profitable way of playing. Because i normally call and take there stake off them.

The only time i raise UTG and UTG + 1 is with AA KK or maybe QQ depending on table and my image.

That is a huge downfall when someone doesn't know how or when to change gears! Great catch on that!

I made the money on that mtt but it wasn't deep or anything special.

2 days ago I did go deep in a mtt. I went card dead, had been at the same table for over 2 hrs and 2x I raised utg with air and everyone folded to me. So doing it once in a while with the right table image is good but sounds like that guy abused it and got caught.