Pocket K's v. Pocket A's=Instant out?

OK, this is something I have been trying to determine for a while now.

Lets say it is the early stage of a micro MTT. I get KK dealt to me pre-flop in a late position (on the button). At a 10 person table there are 2 calls before me and I raise 3x the big blind. One person calls, the second person re-raises 2x my initial bet. My gut reaction is to assume that I am dealing with 2 other people with top 10 hands and that I am not going to be able to to much to push them away apart from following up with an all-in push. I push all-in, person 1 folds and person 2 calls and shows AA.

Based on the scenario above, if I get KK and somebody has AA, it instantly means I am going to be either crippled or knocked out of the tournament. Without flaming me, what am I doing wrong and what can I do to save some of my stack from this sort of devastatingly bad luck?

Why do you want to push people away? Do you realize you have KK?

I realize that I have KK but I want to push away drawing hands. I don't want somebody with J10 suited to draw out a flush or a straight. Worse yet, I want to push away the AK suited that flops an A.

In this scenario, with 2 others playing, I want to assert the strength of my hand. I prefer with high pocket hole cards to play 1v1. So you are saying I already asserted my hands strength with the 3x BB raise and I should just call here? Especially considering I would already be 1v1?

TBH, in order to push out drawing hands pre-flop, your opponents have to have read some poker books otherwise they will just see 2 suited cards that they think deserves a call.
As for your example, I think 3xBB is a weak raise and you should have bet 5xBB total, which would in turn push most drawing hands out.

Interesting, I honestly haven't really considered a 5xBB bet. I always feel that will push away all remaining hands, or encourage a counter all-in call. I would still like to play against 1 person who may have a KQ or QJ suited who hopes the flop benefits them. Do you think that KK is only good for blinds or a coin-flip? That is an honest question, not meaning to be a jerk .

I guess what I am specifically getting at here is that despite KK generally being the top pre-flop hand, there are occasions where somebody will have AA on top of your KK. I was looking for a way to not lose my stack because of bad luck. Maybe I should be playing the KK stronger but, honestly, I thought that playing a KK too strong would guarantee an AA taking my stack. Should I just accept that is "bad luck"? Should I just accept it happens, lose my stack, and try again another day?

Probably a more classic line of play would go something like this...
"I get KK dealt to me pre-flop in a late position (on the button). At a 10 person table there are 2 calls before me and I raise FIVEx the big blind (especially if I have a concern about a drawing hand beating me). One person FOLDS, the second person re-raises 2x my initial bet. My gut reaction is this guy might be serious but at the same time he could have QQ, or AK, as well as aces. I come over the top and double his bet. He shoves all in (oh crap, he probably has aces, BUT...) and I call and we are right back where we would have been."
OR:
I flat his raise to go to the flop and if there is no ace figure I am in great shape. But his betting after the flop may lead me to believe he has trips and I might be able to escape.
BUT,
No idea - I have no information on this player to help me make an informed decision so I am going to count on my KK to be good. The chances of someone else holding AA while I have KK is usually less than 1% - very hard to escape that 1%. I have to ride these Cowboys, take my beating and come back to do it all over again.

That makes sense. I am getting out of this that I need to put a 5xBB bet into my betting arsenal. Thanks for the input guys! Looks like KK either should be good or devastatingly bad. KK is such an evil hand...

When you have KK you should be concentrating on getting as much of your opponent's stack in the middle as possible. Complaining about running into the nuts just makes this a bad-beat thread.

I wasn't complaining at all! On the contrary, I was simply asking for some suggestions on how to improve my poker play. I don't care (that much) about bad beats, this is just meant to flush out how I can play KK in the future to avoid the low-percentage chance of somebody having an AA and taking my chip-stack.

I apologize if that is not how you read my initial post. I repeat: this is not meant to be a bad-beat thread.

Do you have another suggestion as to how I should play a KK pre-flop in the situation I described? So far, it looks like I should play a 5xBB raise and accept the bad luck that may come with my opponent having a possible AA. Do you think a 5xBB raise will limit the amount of money I will get in the middle? I used to believe that a 3xBB raise might trap some people with suited connectors or something, but am learning that may be the wrong way to look at it.

well my theory with the quick all in...is there is only one way they can do that comfortably...........It happened to me in a live tournament we are both big stacks I am on the button and he is UTG he raise 3 times the bb I re pop him and he snap goes allin....I show the kings to the table and say there is only one way you can do that comfortably.....I thought about then called..sure enough he had aces....preflop there is still one hand that beats kings...you have to take that into consideration

No, really, it is a bad-beat/cooler thread. You haven't given enough info (stack sizes, blind levels, reads, buy-in, table dynamics, etc.) and haven't posted in a correct format to get proper feedback on the way you played KK in this specific situation.

You got all the chips in the middle with KK preflop and got called, so it worked out. Nh.

If you want to know how to get away from KK when someone has AA, you can quit playing poker. Outside of that, you'll get into that situation over and over, and you will have the reverse situation, where you have AA and run into KK. And sometimes when you have AA you'll lose, and sometimes when you have KK you'll win.

It's not worth wasting time thinking about it.

OP set the discussion as 'early stages of a tourney', so reads are assumed to be thin. Tracker reads on villains may sway action if you have seen these villains before, but by and large you have to assume nothing but what a villain reps in the early stages.

Resist the temptation to shove PF in any early stages of any tourney.

Think value rather than confrontation. This will help you get good returns when you prevail, and hopefully limit losses when you don't. But no, that may not be the optimal return for the good fortune of picking up KK preflop. Our natural inclination is to get it all in pf with QQ+. Resist that urge! Certainly you want to be in the pot for the flop, but to put your life on it is reckless. Learn pot control, and bask in the value.

Preflop, all hands are beatable! Remember that. While a potent tool the shove is something that early in a tourney you want to avoid until the circumstances are very good. Early in a tourney, I defy anyone to promote a good argument for shoving pf other than they are shortstacked. The argument to play hard or go home usually results in a quick trip home. Not to be confused with aggressive play, reckless play is a ticket to Greyhound.

JMHO.

agree with baudib, you're thinking way too much. You want to get it all-in with PF with KK every time, no matter what. And you did.

You want hands like JTs and AK to call every time because you'll stack them most of the time.

Not in the early stages of a tourney. Ring? Fine. After the money bubble? Fine.
Early stages of a tourney? Reckless.

Again, just my humble opinion.

Early stages of a tournament is essentially a meaningless phrase.

To get into the money in an MTT, you generally have to win the equivalent of every chip at your starting table, or double up 3-4 times. Of course our goal isn't to make the money, it's to get deep into the money, ideally the final table and the top 3, so we'll need more chips than that.

Unless you have a last-longer bet with someone, there's no added utility in busting out on the fifth blind level or the first.

bottom line: do not avoid all-in pre situations that are +EV just because it's "early."

I specifically asked in the beginning of the post for no flaming. I see that is something either skipped over or disregarded entirely before deciding to devote your time to this thread. Though I attempted to respond to your initial negativity sincerely, you chose to move right past it to another confrontational reply which provided no response to the original post and instead added trash to a thread that has proven to be, for my needs, useful.

I asked you for your opinion in regards to this situation as I spelled out. I did not go into detail specifically because the question was general. I stated this situation was hypothetical, I told you what position I was in, what stage of the tournament I was in, the type of buy-in the tournament was, but did not tell you chipstacks because I found it to be irrelevant as it was at the early stage of the tournament. If that is not "in the correct format" for you, I apologize and ask that you simply ignore this thread.

Additionally, if you wish to create specific criteria which you insist I do not meet for my intention, I also probably do not qualify for a "bad beat/cooler" thread because nowhere do I look for empathy, state my emotions after the loss (which I also don't specify occurring), or otherwise generally moan about poker. I simply state what the odds indicate will happen. Before you respond again to this, or any of my threads I may create, consider the fact that I probably have the best of intentions and choose to respond from there. Otherwise, don't waste your or my time by responding in a negative light.

For the rest of you who have provided useful information, I thank you. Clearly enough information was given to at least present a work-able theory and I have learned something from it. baudib1, I will agree with you on this much: perhaps I am over-thinking the KK v. AA scenario and need to just accept that it is part of the game.

Good luck out there!

I wasn't flaming, but again I'll say: the content of your OP is about getting away from KK when someone has AA. This is a cooler situation and you don't get away from coolers. You basically cannot do this in a tournament. Given the information given (hardly any), you could never get away from KK. Just keep raising until (hopefully) all the chips are in the middle.

Also, coolers are generally 0 EV and make 0 impact on your winnings. So, again, not worth thinking about.

You reveal a lot about your mindset in numerous sentences, and you're going to have to adjust this thinking. You don't go all-in with KK to get everyone to fold, you go all-in if you think it's your best shot at getting action. If you think everyone will fold, then just 4-bet smaller to induce a shove or give better odds to get flatted by worse.

Chipstacks are never going to be irrelevant, because some tournaments can start at 50 BBs and others at 200. But basically you should raise more when there are limpers already in the pot.

Why is this reckless? Early stages of a tourney I am goin crazy happy if I can get it in with KK pf.

Doubling up early in a tournament is one of the best things you can do.

Also, the money bubble is absolutely the worst time in a tournament to play tight.

not enough info. provided in example to give an answer (whether it be 'hypothetical' or not)

Best advice I've found throughout this thread. It really is about achieving your goal. You have to look at every situation with all the information you have (players history/style, positions, your table image, buyin level/tournament payouts etc.) Some factors becoming more important than others depending. I think you are asking if there are more effective ways to keep more people out of your pots when you have KK while still keeping one or two in? it is hard infact to give you specific answers with so few specific details (redundant?). It is a delicate line you tread, but I would always air on the side of keeping players in the hand while trying to get more information. Don't get married to two cards in a 5 card and hand have fun.

Stix

Not reckless.

/thread.

You want people with AK and JT to call you if you have KK. Common sense surely?

There might be some extreme cases where one could get away from KK in early levels of a Tournament... but they'd need to be very specific (ie. you have a TON of history with villain, you 'know' they are so f'n tight that their 3bet range is only ever AA, KK (< yes there are some), stacks are deep, villain would never 5bai w/o AA (& believes you'd also never be 4betting w <AA, KK) & you have a good stack left if you find a fold & you feel you have a HUGE edge over the field.
(now before I get 'flamed' here, lol... I'm talking about VERY specific situations... ie. a priv. league game, smaller field size, more value on 'tournament life' (ie. team pts.), and you perceive yourself as having a HUGE edge over the field).

ok.. flame away... lol

If he only ever 5bets with AA, then you should never be 4betting - flat his 3bet and set mine because you always get stacks in on a K high board.

I don't understand the line you are taking here, especially early in the blind levels we want to be extracting as much value here as possible, AKs, JTs shouldnt be hands that scare you players that call with them are in the long run giving you chips. a 5xbb as stated earlier makes sense (3 is standard + 2xlimpers).

getting stacks in with kk is ideal if your opponents allow it, shoving fearing a call makes no sense, if you shove because you think that weaker hands will call you then well played, otherwise bet/raise for value.

being afraid of AK on a A high board shouldn't worry you, as it is simple to get away from postflop(assuming you flatted).

Running into aces in inevitable, but if the table is playing looser than you then you will run into QQ,JJ,1010,99,AKs,AKo,AQs etc alot more than you will AA and that is what makes KK so profitable.

hope that helps

PO: How many times have you folded KK in an online tournament w/100 bbs or less?

I agree with all of this.
Nice post.

At a certain level vs certain opponents, constantly and instantly.

Expand^^?

You come in with a raise, someone re-raises u. You put that player on KK+; u fold.

lol how do you put a player on KK+? What are their stats?

You have probably made some very bad folds.

Lol no one 3bets only KK+ anymore.

Yup. *ESPECIALLY* in a freeroll or low buyin large field MTT. :

/level

To the OP, if you're still here and reading this, I just want to clear one thing up that I think you are misunderstanding: you aren't raising to 5xBB+ because you have KK, you are raising to 5xBB+ because you have two open limpers ahead of you. If you raise on 3xBB with two limpers ahead, you give them good odds to call and outdraw you.