Playing like a pro(?)

After having an amazing Poker week in Vegas ((Our) Vegas Poker Tour) we think we have understood how we should have played the professional tournaments and we would like to hear your opinion about it.

We are talking here about the $120 tournament and up ($330, $540, $1080) where a player wont call you with nothing (e.g. calling an AI with K2 preflop in the 2nd hand of a tournement...).

When you are a decent basketball player and you try and take Michael Jordan 1 on 1, you'll lose (not in 99% of the cases, but in 100% of the cases!!) however, the beautiful thing in Poker is that if you're a decent Poker player, you could take out Daniel Negranou in a tournament!!

We have played the tournaments trying to eliminate the luck factor and enhancing the skill factor. We know it's about 65% skill-35% luck assuming one actually has skill. So, we played rather tight and bluffed only 10%-20% of the hands. We rarely got caught due to our tight image that we had, people believed us and most of the time folded. However, even if we ended up deep in the tournament and even when we made it to the final table, we were always short stacked - Always!
Analyzing the tournaments made us understand we're doing something wrong. Watching the pros made us understand what is the right way to play, still, we wonder if it is really the right way.

We now think that these tournaments should be played very aggressively and thus, one has to have the bank roll to play it as such. The pros who live in Vegas, are counting on the fact that tourist\avg. players who are coming to Vegas care a lot about their money and will not call a very high bet preflop unless its a super strong hand (i.e. QQ and up). So, when they see 4 or 5 players limping and they have position they are raising to 6-7 times BB (instead of the 'standard 3BB or 3.5BB) and make everyone fold 80% of the times. In the remaining 20% they will bet another 6-7 times BB no matter what comes out assuming the the caller has hit nothing. In 80% of the cases they will be right and in the remaining 20% the caller will hit something but will think four times before calling the 2nd huge raise. In rare cases, when the poor tourist will hit a set he will call... and then it might come out to a show down and in 20% of the cases the pro will suckout a victory.... anyway, he has him completely covered so the pro wasn't hurt too much.

If the pro player has no position but has a nice potential hand (e.g. A9s, K,10s or even 9,Js) he will do the 'regular' 6-7 BB raise hope not to have any callers (this will be the case 80% of the times) and for the few callers he will bet 6-7 BB after the flop and in 80% of the cases the callers will fold due to hitting nothing.

Playing like that all the time will get any player to the final table with a nice stack of chips and a real chance to win the tournament in 30% to 40% of the games.

If the 20% x 20% actually happen and the pro is out of the tournament that is fine as there is always the option to register the next one. Playing like that 10 tournaments will get one loaded with chips to the final table in at least 3 tournaments (out of the 10) which will make the whole affair profitable.

I would love to hear your take about that.

I would change the term "pro" in your post to "locals".

The "locals" in Vegas have the luxury of being able to hit the table again tomorrow or even next week. The "tourist" doesn't have that luxury and wants to continue the experience for as long as they can. Its the difference between playing to win and playing to just play.

This is one reason I won't play NL ring games in Vegas because the "locals" like to grab a table with a big stack and shove the "tourists" around with huge bets because they know a) Tourists are loose, and b) Tourists play with scared money.

I'm not sure if being hyper-aggressive is the right strategy. However, playing a solid tight-aggressive game and having the skills push back on the 7X raises with good cards will get you to that final table in good shape. You now recognize the style. Its time to capitalize on it. Its like playing micro-limit SnG's on the net. You have to recognize that a 3X BB raise will not be respected from any position, particularly in the early stages of the tournament.

Well, the locals are pros as they are all playing Poker for a living. There are pros better than other but they are all pros.
There were also pros from other places in the world (mainly the UK) that came to Vegas and played with us and we have witnessed the same aggressive game play from them, which paid off most of the times in the long run.

I think its a combination of a few factors here;
First, setting a high price for very good hands (7-8 BB)
Second, recognizing limpers or small raises when we have position and raise a lot more no matter what cards we have. Then, raise a lot no matter what the flop is. In most cases you will then take that hand as people will be afraid of the monster hand you have due to raising pre and post flop.
Third, setting a high price for marginal hands and hopefully get folds or lucky on the showdown.

Next time we go to Vegas (whenever this maybe) we'll try this strategy over 10 tournaments and see if it works

Its important to emphasize that this might work in vegas... ONLY. Try it online, and you will get called way too often to make it profitable.

I have actually used a very similar strategy online in cash games. Taking advantage of position on limpers and a solid continuation bet (regardless of the flop), has helped me take down a lot of pots without a showdown.

I actually got this idea from reading Phil Gordon's Little Green Book.

Well, online im not so sure about. Too many people like to call.

However, live play (not only vegas) it seems like a pretty good idea. You sure it will come out profitable tho? Lets say you do the whole 7-8BB thing pre flop and flop. goes to showdown, and the villian raises you, what do you do? fold after you put so much in? and lets say you get to a showdown, I have a feeling that even though its not very often. Paying out 12-14BB will turn out negative from the blinds and small bets you steal. This loose-agressive tyle would have to work repeatedly many times before becoming profitable, by which then other players catch on to the style or someone gets a nice hand.

On line or live, it doesn't matter. If its a micro\low stakes game, you will always have the donks who will call with nothing (and probably beat you) However, in medium\high stakes games, this should work.

Yes the idea is probably losing 10BB in 20% of the times, but win ~6-7BB in 80% of the time. In the long run, it should be profitable. Its not 100% full proof, if it was, all would've done it. It also takes some luck, some guts and good reading skills to know the 'when' )

Ok well lets say you play live (i like to) 1/2 $ NL hold em. standard 100$ buy in (50 BB)
you think this strategy would work? I usually play tight-aggressive, blind stealing when i can. But this new strategy really intrests me, but I have a bad feeling about losing with it and going on tilt and having the posibility of re-buying back in just because I would have been at the casino for under an hour before losing it all. understand what i mean?
I have been thinking of trying a slightly different way of playing, playing tight for the most part but then using the tight image in my favor by playing loose-agressive (or this way) for about 3-5 hands and then returning to my tight-aggressive, rinse and repeating this every so often.

Well, no, I don't think this kind of play is good for cash games. Its more for tournaments.
In cash games, especially the $1-$2 the key is (lots!!) of patience, as it rarly costs you. Of course you should try and play your position and maybe try and limp marginal hands every now and then and hope to hit (or try to bluff) but most of my winnings from cash games where when I had very good hands and it went to the showdown.
Again, you may win big or lose big. I remember having AKo in a cash game. I raised and had 2 callers. Flop was 9,9,9. Everyone checked and so have I. Then the turn was an Ace. I continued to check and so did everyone else. River was a 3. They both checked and I raised $30... one fold and one said "make it $60", I said OK and he showed me the 4th 9... So... Its not all good all the time, but again, hopefully in 80% of the cases you will be the one with the better hand and win
Good luck!!

If you were playing like this in a short stacked, faster tourny then i think you'd either go out straight away or build a huge stack and then if you toned it down a bit you might have a good chance of going deep...

however, if you were on my table in a deep stacked tourny with like 40 min blind levels i think i could hang you out to dry if you were playing like that, far too predictable, and your always giving someone the implied odds needed to call with lesser hands because they know your going to bet big whatever the flop comes down, i'd be calling you down with all sorts from any pair over say 7's to decent suited connectors, flop comes low and hits me hard with say 2 pair, maybe i'm open ended, flush drawn, you fire out, i come over the top and you can't call with ur 2 overs or ace high, i think thats going to be far more profitable in the long run than the amount of times you steal the blinds early on...

the other week i was playing in venlo and i had a player playing pretty much this exact style, he'd doubled up early on from a total idiot and was just raising big in position then whatever the flop came down he'd fire 1000 into a 400 or so pot, with him on my right i was just sitting and waiting for a hand to call him with, finally i pick up 10's in the CO, he raises big from the hijack, i flat call, flop comes T-x-x he makes his usual big bet, i push, he has to call me down with AK cus by now the pots too big and he's getting good odds n i double up, he never raised me again when i had position on him.

In theory it sounds like a good style being all aggresive etc but any half decent player at your table can trap you very easily

While you waited for the pair of tens, that player won lots of chips. Then came the 20% where you won with your trips.
I did not say that one needs to be playing like that all the time or all the time that one has position, one needs to 'read the table'. When you raise quite a lot, you should expect people (decent players) are just waiting to trap you and win from your rather loose play. Knowing when to fold is also something you learn with time. Then, there are the dead hands (usually the ones where your rival makes trips on the flop and you get a top pair top kicker or two pairs... very hard to get away from that one). The dead hands are going to kill you whether you play tight or not. Playing like I've described above will give you at least the chance of not being completely dead and try and build your pot back again.
Then, last but not least, there is the luck factor, it is nice to try and get to a showdown when you have an advantage but from my experience, you can lose the hand even if you're 80-20 ahead (i.e. suckout!! ).

There are many styles to play, I think this one give you a bit more than the others on a decent day regarding the luck factor.

I have to disagree. If I understand what you say correctly then a decent player will wait to trap the aggressive player. The point is that the aggressive player will first of all have a bigger stack, also, he will go to a showdown with a good hand and then at about 20-35% of the time he will win over a better hand!
Taking into account the bigger stack, 20-35% of winning the "bad" showdowns (if indeed they are always against the aggressive player) AND taking into account several tournaments in a row, the loose aggressive player will be ITM in a few of these tournaments and the rest he will lose quickly. So all in all he/she WILL WIN money over the course of several tournaments.

I strongly disagree with this guide simply because it recomends to play in a pattern. For 10 hands, everyone at the table will notice that u are stealing off pots, then they will wait for monster and get back the hard earned BB u stealed

Well after winning some pots, when a tight player raises or re raises you, then you know its time to fold. easy as that, minimize your losses. Again, if I understand how he explained it. The two bets you made preflop and on the flop and just lost, will be less than the overall pots that you steal.
This is actually not bad, because people will start to call you and go to showdown with weaker hands, after seeing this over and over. Then you have a better chance of beating a player who gradually plays more loose (you tighten up, and take him down completely)

Or you start to be called because people loosen up. You make continuation bets, you get traped, and re-raised on the river whe you are actually pot comited. What you do next ? You get on tilt because you have lost most of your money. I do not recomend this for players who try to resemble the pros. You simply need lots of nerves and balls to play this style, which most beginers dont.

Interesting post, the title though is Playing like a pro, and the fact is the majority of pro's don't play like this at all, harrington, helmuth, negreanu, are all players that don't play crazily aggressive like this guide states and the list could go on forever but its never done them any harm.

i don't think it's as simple as raising big when people limp. if this was the "pro" strategy, anyone could do it! because none of your plays are based on reads or playing the odds or any skills involved really. it is mechanical play.

Well, you have never seen the pros really playing, you see them playing on TV - Its completely different there as they (have to) put on a show. I have played with pros and indeed, not all play like I have stated above, but many are and this is how they make their money. 3 big wins out of 10 tourneys does make a living, you know

You do not raise every time when there are limpers, you must add your 'reading of the table' factor and also (but least important) your hand. Plus, you must set a very high price to your good hands. This is how they play and its very hard to 'catch' them as they will play the same way QQ, 56o with position and K7o to take down a pot with limpers and you're always "afraid" to call their QQ...
Do you really think everyone can play like that?? Suppose you put $540 or $1080 buy in in a tournament, would you raise 6-7BB preflop on a bad or marginal hand?? The sad truth is that not everyone can play like that... It takes either courage, a lot of money or being a real pro imho.

exactly! pretty much everyone can employ this style because it doesn't take much skill (surely reads can't play much of an important role because the only information you have preflop is whether they call, raise, or fold. unless they have some darn good tells, which is unlikely). and according to you, it works very well, so why would you need courage or a lot of money when it's such a surefire way to win?

I think its a load.. Sure a local or pro might try to intimidate you but if you play safe early on and watch you should be able to see what he's playing related to his aggressiveness.. If you think he is pushing hard and trying to steal then you either push back or trap him.. If you at the final table you are doing well .. Unless you have the chip lead or at least 2nd i think its always better to play your cards.. Bluffing becomes extremely expensive and risky... Occasionally in a late position you might be able to steal the blinds but bluffing i would generally keep to a minimum.

Have you guys seen USPC 2004-2006? WSOP all past years? WPT? These are the pros, or at least the big money players and the key word in ALL of these T are "selective aggressive" look at the final table of USPC 2006 for a great example. The whole idea is not the push all the time, but to push MOST of the time and collect many pots, and in the end if you go to a showdown you will either lose some of the pots earned or you get lucky 30-40% of the time and take big pots.The tight approach of waiting to trap your opponents would have worked if you trap on a hand that you have 100% to win, but in reality these hands are very rare -> that is the MAIN mathematical point.