playing K-A

I keep watching people go all in with K-A, suited or not. regardless of position. UTG, SB, BB, Button, and all. also regardless of whether other people are all in (clearly a pocket pair possible)

is this really a good move? i dont think so. but i could be wrong. i mean, its one of the best starting hands, but it isnt even a pair.

are these players making bad moves?

I only push with ACE king if i am short stacked and only if no one else have raised big in front of me. It really isn't that good of a starting hand.

99 is a pair, a pretty good one

This is 99 vs. top 5% of hands

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 35.878% 34.87% 01.01% 211347732 6130452.00 { 99 }
Hand 1: 64.122% 63.11% 01.01% 382546980 6130452.00 { 99+, AJs+, KQs, AKo }

This is AKo
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 46.509% 37.07% 09.43% 365658840 93056184.00 { AKo }
Hand 1: 53.491% 44.06% 09.43% 434515896 93056184.00 { 99+, AJs+, KQs, AKo }

AKs

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.105% 40.29% 08.81% 132461868 28977816.00 { AKs }
Hand 1: 50.895% 42.08% 08.81% 138344868 28977816.00 { 99+, AJs+, KQs, AKo }

not the worst play i've seen especially when ur playing with donktards who will call with any ace, really just depends on the table, chip stacks, blinds, etc. you basically in a coin flip with any pocket pair other than kings and aces, even against kings if ur suited u should win a little over a third of the time, and against aces well ur dominated there , but still win just over 11% of the time

if i see two average stacks go all in against each other, i will most certainly fold K-A. typically they should have pocket pairs against each other or at least one of them might also have K-A, which means that ill get a tie at best. making it not worth it.

ill call with K-A against a short stack, and AS a short stack myself. or against a guaranteed loose player. thats about the only times ill be all in with K-A.

am i right? or am i undervaluing K-A?

yes you're undervaluing it

getting all-in pre with AK is standard, perhaps even preferable because of fold equity + realizing your full equity (you get to see all 5 cards).

A-K is at a slight disadvantage to a pocket pair right?

i usually assume that if average stack is all in, he has a pair of some sort. is it really good to play against the odds, no matter how slight?

or maybe im too tight? am i giving players the benefit of the doubt by just assuming they have a pair? how often would an average stack go all in with just any premium?

of course there are times when i know my opponent doesnt have a pocket pair, but if i dont have a grip on how my opponent plays, ill assume he has pair.

calling and raising are completely two different things. If you call an all in with you receive no fold equity the only odds you have are just the odds of winning the had, but when you raise all in you have the additional probability of everyone folding and you can win the hand, and the probability of winning the hand with your cards. In the situation you are talking about it really just depends on the players in the hand, what you've seen them playing raising with etc, why would they raise all in? if they are a player raising with every ace id call.

I mean technically you would be receiving almost 2-1 pot odds (if not a little better) lets say you have AK off another person has AJ off and the third has pocket J's, you'll win nearly 39% of the time J's 55% and AJ off 3.3 (if there ace isnt same suit as your king), if the ace is the same suit you go down to about 38% and AJ goes up to about 4%. Switch the other player to having queens and any other lower pocket pair and you win 1/3 of the time. Your odds go up to about 37.5% of the time if your suited AK.

(all percentages are based on 5000000 simulations)

How often are you right in your reads here? If you aren't 80%+ correct then yes you are putting opponents on too tight of a range. Shoving with AK is different from calling off with AK due to fold equity. Once you add into an opponents midPP range any hands less than AK then AK becomes a favorite

Wins Ties Equity
43.38% 8.94% 52.32% ( AK )
38.74% 8.94% 47.68% ( 88-QQ,AK, AQ )

34.79% 10.99% 45.77% ( AK )
43.24% 10.99% 54.23% ( 88-QQ,AK )

Yes i do slow play my ace kings.. if they don't hit i let them go. But i see people chase all the time with ace king.... Don't let yourself fall into the trap of chasing with ace king!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ran two more simulations for you,

AK suited vs 10s vs Ax (any card with ace)
you 1/3, 10's 50%, other ace 13.3%

AK off vs 10s vs Ax
you about 30%, 10's about 53%, and other about 14%

If you have 99 and run into TT+, you're at a huge disadvantage.

let's say blinds are 10/20 and there's a raise to $100.

it folds to you and you reraise to $250 with AK. The blinds fold and the original raiser pushes all-in. You have $700 left and he has you covered. Let's say it's a live tournament and he shows you QQ.

do you call or fold?

oh man thats a tough one. to be honest i think i would fold. but im guessing the point here is that i should call?

generally im talking about calling. i assume that if someone raises all in before me, that should indicate he has a pocket pair, which should have me beat at least 51% of the time.

of course it depends on the player. but if i dont know who im playing, ill assume its a pair just to be on the safe side

I think a lot of players jam with ak because they think unless you have aces they arent in that bad of shape even against kings they still over 25%. But i do believe you should raise with ak everytime unless u have a good read on an opponenet and you know they are going to bet for you, so u can re evaluate witht the 3 bet or the flat

hope that helps ttyl

your thought process isn't good here. pairs are usually going to be a small part of someone's range.

yes it's a snapcall, DUCY?

i think so. being that everyone folded to a raise, gives me good odds to hit the king or ace?

no it's because you're getting almost 2-1 on a call when you don't need nearly that much to profit.

the point is that thinking "OMG someone has a pair, i don't have a pair, i fold" is bad. If you think you should only be getting the chips in the middle when you are ahead you will probably have trouble in MTTs.

AK is a donkey's favorite hand. AK is also overrated as hell. If the flop doesn't hit u 'str8 draw, one or two pair, or a flush draw' just fold fold fold fold......fold.....

I'm with baudib, you're definitely undervaluing AK and should be more apt to get your chips in pre, especially with initiative.

When it comes to open shoving, or shoving over a raise, you have to combine fold equity with pot equity to get your true equity situation. Since AK is a coinflip against any pocket pair less than KK, that's ~50% pot equity before FE is even added to the mix, meaning your total equity is going to be >50% if you're the one shoving AK preflop and there's any FE to be had. Who wouldn't shove with those odds almost every single time?

That's not to say it's always a snap call against TWO all-ins, but it all depends on player images, stack sizes, blinds, etc. In most situations I will have to call one all-in pre with AK, and in nearly every case where I think I have even a little fold equity by over shoving, then I'm doing so.

Assuming a shove is always a PP is definitely a bad assumption. Any player that picks up on this would totally exploit you. Pocket pairs constitute less than a 6% range. That's a very small part of most people's shoving range, especially as stacks decline. And only very bad players (or maybe higher level thinkers exploiting lower level thinkers, but that's less common at the smaller stakes) will open shove AA/KK for more than 10-15bbs. If they're making a huge overbet shove, then odds are it's a smaller PP or big suited cards (not counting total bluffs, which will make up some percent of most people's range as well), so AK has good equity against that overall range.

Also, using "average stack" as your benchmark is flawed, because it's meaningless out of context. Average stack on a final table can be a very short "ATC" shoving range. And the larger the stacks involved, the larger the fold equity, which has to be considered.

Now the story may be different if you play DONs or Satellites and are on the bubble with a guaranteed 1st prize stack. It's not uncommon to fold even KK here, some even claim to fold AA (although I can't say I've ever done so), unless you have the monster stack and can afford to fold to a shove that would threaten your finish. But in a regular game, I'm rarely hesitating to do the shoving with AK.

Perhaps post-flop, but we're talking pre-flop shoving here. Post-flop is an entirely different ballgame, and it shouldn't be difficult to fold even AA/KK in specific post-flop scenarios, let alone AK. Put it this way: I can more easily fold AA/KK post-flop than I can fold AK pre-flop.

I see it all the time they seem to think it cant be beat but if it doesnt hit any pair will win against it I think its great to raise with and they fold but when they call and you dont hit then what/

I've folded AK a few times near the bubble when I have something like 20-30BB, but AK is all in for turbos, super turbos, and shortstacks.